Amazing!

[royfurr]

Zachriel,
In my defense, I claim being mislead by our beloved Game Instruction Manual.

Pg, 168:
"Only one unit can be airlifted from **or into** each city per turn."

There appears to be no entry in the Civlopedea for "Airlift".



Man, I have been really, really UNIMPRESSED with the games' documentation.

I am very glad you posted on this, else I would never have realized, thanks to CIv II precidance and the Manuals statement, that one COULD funnel into an Airport multiple Aiflift missions. Its a useful thing!

Thanks again.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by royfurr

Man, I have been really, really UNIMPRESSED with the games' documentation.

Me, too! It`s on the same level as the historical background information for the tribes..... like: the car was invented in America

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Zachriel:

add on about the Palace move: it is now located as shown below, I`m finally democratic - and I rock! It was the exact right decision to build the Fp down south, since all towns there now have Courthouses and constant WLTKD, while the new location gets a far larger boost from the real Palace than it would from the FP.....

 

[royfurr]

Killer is replying to my comment about the poor level of the games documentation ...

Originally posted by Killer


Me, too! It`s on the same level as the historical background information for the tribes..... like: the car was invented in America

Not to contest the invention of the automoble, wasn't it Otto Damiler in about 1896 or so?? BUT-

THE INSTRUCTION MANUAL IS WAY WAY WORSE THEN THE HISTORICAL BACKGORUND STUFF. I CAN IGNORE THOSE ERRORS (or even laugh and debate them in this forum). BUT ERRORS IN THE MANUAL CAN LEAD ONE ASTRAY IN GAMEPLAY!

One shouldn't have to experiment and test every statement in the manual just to see if that is the way the game "really" works. (Firaxis and Sid Fans, Please ... ERRORS in the INSTRUCTION MANUAL are just pathetic. I honestly do not see how they can be defended.

edit by writer: flammable statment removed)

Wouldn't it be nice if Firaxis would post an errata for the manual here or on their web site? Not a corrected manual, thats a gift to the pirates, but at least a list of known errors and corrections.

The Civlpoeda is way short of having the level of information the manual has. All to often a topic isn't even listed there (look in the Game Concept section or in the Index there, and you will not see an entry on "Airlift", for example. There are many many other similiar examples).

Of course, maybe the printed manual is "correct" about ony one inbound flight per airport per turn (which if true would be a REAL realism crock), and that is the way the game was "supposed" to be- and it is a bug that we CAN in-bound more then one flight/turn per airport! We better whisper this, or Soren will take this "exploit" out in the next patch!


Sorry to have wandered OT, but the manual thing is really upsetting.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by royfurr
Killer is replying to my comment about the poor level of the games documentation ...




Not to contest the invention of the automoble, wasn't it Otto Damiler in about 1896 or so?? BUT-

THE INSTRUCTION MANUAL IS WAY WAY WORSE THEN THE HISTORICAL BACKGORUND STUFF. I CAN IGNORE THOSE ERRORS (or even laugh and debate them in this forum). BUT ERRORS IN THE MANUAL CAN LEAD ONE ASTRAY IN GAMEPLAY!

One shouldn't have to experiment and test every statement in the manual just to see if that is the way the game "really" works. (Firaxis and Sid Fans, Please ... ERRORS in the INSTRUCTION MANUAL are just pathetic. I honestly do not see how they can be defended.

edit by writer: flammable statment removed)

Wouldn't it be nice if Firaxis would post an errata for the manual here or on their web site? Not a corrected manual, thats a gift to the pirates, but at least a list of known errors and corrections.

The Civlpoeda is way short of having the level of information the manual has. All to often a topic isn't even listed there (look in the Game Concept section or in the Index there, and you will not see an entry on "Airlift", for example. There are many many other similiar examples).

Of course, maybe the printed manual is "correct" about ony one inbound flight per airport per turn (which if true would be a REAL realism crock), and that is the way the game was "supposed" to be- and it is a bug that we CAN in-bound more then one flight/turn per airport! We better whisper this, or Soren will take this "exploit" out in the next patch!


Sorry to have wandered OT, but the manual thing is really upsetting.

On this I will agree. The quality of the manual is horrendous and inexcusable. What really pisses me off is that I have several times applied for jobs as a technical writer, and I always get turned down. How the hell did the writer of that manual get a job?

FACT: I had numerous cities that had 50 something shield production then only produced 1 SHIELD AFTER WASTE!!!!!! THAT IS REDICULOUS. Most of the computer allies/enemies can pump tons of units out per turn without drafting! Makes it very hard to get late wonders. I changed optimal cities to 70 and that SEVERLY helped the problem. Communism indeed has superior corruption and waste to Democracy!

First, if you had 50 cities, I am assuming that some of them were newly conquered. Why would these people efficient produce military units for their conquerer?

Second, the AI has the same corruption/waste problems that we do. If the AI is dealing with them better than you are, you could use some help.

 

[Reichsmarshal]

Originally posted by eyrei

First, if you had 50 cities, I am assuming that some of them were newly conquered. Why would these people efficient produce military units for their conquerer?

Second, the AI has the same corruption/waste problems that we do. If the AI is dealing with them better than you are, you could use some help.

Perhaps you could use some help if you have never seen how many tanks and mech infantries the computer can build each turn with 1/3 the amount of cites. I said that there was a particular city where I was producing about 59 shields and all save one was going to waste!

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Reichsmarshal


Perhaps you could use some help if you have never seen how many tanks and mech infantries the computer can build each turn with 1/3 the amount of cites. I said that there was a particular city where I was producing about 59 shields and all save one was going to waste!

Are you sure they did not already have a significant number of units? The AI also tends to neglect improvements in favor of units.

Your implication was that the AI did not suffer from waste to the same extent as the human. This is simply not true. If the AI were in control of your civ, that same city would still only produce one shield. There is some other reason the AI is managing to produce that many more units than you. One is that, with a much smaller civ, more of the cities are highly productive.

 

[Reichsmarshal]

Originally posted by eyrei


Are you sure they did not already have a significant number of units? The AI also tends to neglect improvements in favor of units.

Your implication was that the AI did not suffer from waste to the same extent as the human. This is simply not true. If the AI were in control of your civ, that same city would still only produce one shield. There is some other reason the AI is managing to produce that many more units than you. One is that, with a much smaller civ, more of the cities are highly productive.

I do not claim that the ai does not have the same corruption and waste as the player in the same situation. I am saying that if you capture many cities and become very powerful they will easily keep up in produtivity even if you build up stuff to try to counteract waste.

Example: Moscow size 28, would have awesome shield production, instead about half is waste even though I use communism (which supposedly prevents corruption and waste from getting worse because of distance from captial). Same with almost any other city on the same land mass even though they should not have 3/4 of their shields become waste.

Is it normal if you have so many size 20-30 cities that have tons of mines on mountains/hills and still produce nothing?

The reason I compare this to the ai is that they seems to be able to keep churning out units very fast even if they are in wuss like shape. (The Romans build about as many cavalry as I build tanks per turn currently).

For the record, I believe that corruption and waste is a good concept.

 

[Reichsmarshal]

Even though a more powerful civ should have more corruption and waste, it should not be taken to that extreme. That is my point.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Reichsmarshal



The reason I compare this to the ai is that they seems to be able to keep churning out units very fast even if they are in wuss like shape. (The Romans build about as many cavalry as I build tanks per turn currently).

The AI loves to build cavalry, and usually has quite a few in reserve. Also, once a productive city's radius is covered with railroads, cavalry can easily be produced in one turn, where it will take 2-4 turns to produce a tank.

What level are you playing on? I am sure you are aware that on Monarch and higher, units (and everything else) are cheaper for the AI.

I have not really experimented with communism, but I have not heard many good things about it. I bet if you were to end the war, and switch to republic or democracy, your corruption would be significantly less.

 

[Reichsmarshal]

This example was on regent (it was my 1st game still haven't finisehd it heh). I normally play on monarch now and will try emperor soon. I used to try democracy and found that you have to have way to many entertainers, so now I try communism. Oddly enough their corruption and waste is very similar. Communism does not seem to be helped by that "communal" setting the manual talks about.

 

[eyrei]

I usually use republic. Anyway, I usually get my corruption down to about 7-10% in a 30 city empire on a large map. Also, usually before I wage a war of conquest, and I really only do this once or rarely twice a game, I build either the FP or a new palace right next to the border of the civ I plan to invade. That way, the new territory I conquer will be almost instantly productive.

Courthouses, police stations and WLTK days really do reduce corruption, even in far flung cities, and especially when you combine all three of them. It is expensive to build these in a corrupt city, since you normally have to buy them, but in the long run, it is worth it.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Reichsmarshal
Example: Moscow size 28, would have awesome shield production, instead about half is waste even though I use communism

Interesting example, as Moscow is known for corruption and low productivity both during and after the communist era. This is in the Russian's own capital. I think if it was controlled by a despot in Berlin, the production in Moscow would be nil.

 

[chiefpaco]

Originally posted by eyrei
I usually use republic. Anyway, I usually get my corruption down to about 7-10% in a 30 city empire on a large map. Also, usually before I wage a war of conquest, and I really only do this once or rarely twice a game, I build either the FP or a new palace right next to the border of the civ I plan to invade. That way, the new territory I conquer will be almost instantly productive.

Courthouses, police stations and WLTK days really do reduce corruption, even in far flung cities, and especially when you combine all three of them. It is expensive to build these in a corrupt city, since you normally have to buy them, but in the long run, it is worth it.

Hey Eyrei. You keep mentioning courthouses! Can you explain, at least to me, the science or art of the courthouse? Every time I build it, it seems to just pay for itself & it's an expensive building to produce - even for a core city. Often, it recovers 1-2 shields but then you have to wait 80 shields to recover your investment.

In the core cities, 1 more shield doesn't add much. In the mid-range cities, it takes so long to build. In the distant cities, it does nothing. In the meantime, I could've built a library to boost my research (peacetime) or a rifleman for the front line (wartime). Furthermore, the corruption you save just pays for the building. I just don't see it. Perhaps if the building was cheaper (& maybe maintenance free), I'd appreciate it more.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by chiefpaco
Perhaps if the building was cheaper (& maybe maintenance free), I'd appreciate it more.

I have heard that the effects increase with time. This would make it worthwhile building as early as possible. I do not have any hard evidence of my own. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Zachriel


I have heard that the effects increase with time. This would make it worthwhile building as early as possible. I do not have any hard evidence of my own. Can anyone confirm this?

I cannot confirm it either, although quite a few people seem to hold that opinion.

I generally do not build courthouses in a totally corrupt city until I have connected it to luxuries and gotten it to size 6, to start a WLTK day. Then I build a courthouse. The two combined do have a significant impact. Then, if you add a police station, the city actually becomes productive. Obviously, this will not work on all cities, but ones that are on the same continent, and not ridiculously far from the capital do benefit from this.

 

[royfurr]

Just a request for input from many of you:

Assume your playing continents, not panega or islands. And that your home continent is reasonable in size, not tiny.

How many of you save your FP for a foreign continent rather then use in on the second half of your own (after you clear it of the compeition)? I've tended to use it at "home" to expand the size of my core productive cities- a giant figure 8, with the FP and Palace centered in the two lobes. But that means overseas is endless 1 shield cities. Yes, with effort you can get that up ... a little bit, but not a lot.

Question 2: If the FP is overseas, is it as effective as at home, that is, is the area of effectiveness it will cover as large as if it was one lobe back at home (I would think with residual effects of the palace, the at home lobe where the FP is effective would be a little larger then the circular area around the FP if it was overseas). But maybe not?


Finally, how many of you actually move the palace around, or the FP for that matter? Can this really help much, unless you have a really poor starting spot?

Any thoughts on this, Strategists?

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by royfurr
Just a request for input from many of you:

Assume your playing continents, not panega or islands. And that your home continent is reasonable in size, not tiny.

How many of you save your FP for a foreign continent rather then use in on the second half of your own (after you clear it of the compeition)? I've tended to use it at "home" to expand the size of my core productive cities- a giant figure 8, with the FP and Palace centered in the two lobes. But that means overseas is endless 1 shield cities. Yes, with effort you can get that up ... a little bit, but not a lot.

Question 2: If the FP is overseas, is it as effective as at home, that is, is the area of effectiveness it will cover as large as if it was one lobe back at home (I would think with residual effects of the palace, the at home lobe where the FP is effective would be a little larger then the circular area around the FP if it was overseas). But maybe not?


Finally, how many of you actually move the palace around, or the FP for that matter? Can this really help much, unless you have a really poor starting spot?

Any thoughts on this, Strategists?

Although it depends a lot on the particulars, I would generally move the palace to the exact center of th original island, and then build the Forbidden Palace on the new one (hopefully with a leader from the war). This will allow you to maximize your efficiency in the long run.

I would imagine that the FP has the same effect and radius even when completely separated form the capital.

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by eyrei


Although it depends a lot on the particulars, I would generally move the palace to the exact center of th original island, and then build the Forbidden Palace on the new one (hopefully with a leader from the war). This will allow you to maximize your efficiency in the long run.

I would imagine that the FP has the same effect and radius even when completely separated form the capital.

I do the same thing, only reversed. Build the FP on the home island. It builds much faster than the Palace. Then use the leader to build the Palace on the 2nd continent.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Shaitan

I do the same thing, only reversed. Build the FP on the home island. It builds much faster than the Palace. Then use the leader to build the Palace on the 2nd continent.

Good point. I was assuming the presence of a leader from the invasion, but that is obviously not always the case.