Ribannah
Fighter Druid
Still looks empty to me.
But I'd like to know where you found this info?
Americans ?
- Thread starter Hank
- Start date
Still looks empty to me.
But I'd like to know where you found this info?
Akka
Moody old mage.
Originally posted by Ribannah
Still looks empty to me.
But I'd like to know where you found this info?
Well, I KNOW for sure that Bordeaux was 40 000 inhabitant large during the Middle-Age (I live here
).Now, I know also that it was not the biggest city in France, so I can add Marseille, Lyon, Montpellier, Paris, Toulouse as being at least the same size.
For London, Constantinople, Turin, Milan, Rome etc., it's evaluation through my knowledge of the Middle-Age. I can be wrong, sure, but I would bet that I'm mostly right. Still, I learned all that on history books, so I'll have to have a look on Internet to provide you links.
Maybe in a historical scenario it could be different.
But i have to admit one thing, if the starting point is on the real world map then the americans being right besides the Indians is unrealistic. In a way it shows an arrogance against the people living there for thousands of years.
on a random map this is not an issue on the real world map I for one dont think its right. Most civs start where they originally did in history, why should the americans be any different.
But i have to admit one thing, if the starting point is on the real world map then the americans being right besides the Indians is unrealistic. In a way it shows an arrogance against the people living there for thousands of years.
on a random map this is not an issue on the real world map I for one dont think its right. Most civs start where they originally did in history, why should the americans be any different.
Ribannah
Fighter Druid
Here is some info I just found that illustrates the general idea:
These figures suggest that in 1492 the urbanization percentage in North America could easily have been significantly higher than in Europe.
http://www.poppyware.com/dunham/facts/braudel.html
These figures suggest that in 1492 the urbanization percentage in North America could easily have been significantly higher than in Europe.
Damien
Emperor
U'r like a politician,Ribannah.Playing with the figures.
Well,in 1789,20% of the french pop used to live in the towns.It became 50% in 1934.
This means that in 1789 4 million people(in France) used to live in cities.So i think there were many many cities over 10,000 inhabitants in Europe.Celts n sedentary native americans can be considered as urbanised.Towns n villages were shelters.They used to cultivate n then come back to the village(there were no personal farms).Look at how many iroquois there were.25 000 in 1600 n 5000 in the 1780's.100 000 in 1600 if u count the other iroquoian tribes.5 5000-inhabitant towns n u got the whole league.
And about an empty world...in France 98% of the land is occupied by country n 2% by towns.It's like that all around the world.But this isn't important.u have to look at the pop.More than 75% of the pop live on 2% of the territory in France.
But i don't think the fact to have cities is an achievment.The main factor that does a civ is its accomplishments.
Btw,akka where do u live in Bordeaux?I live near the Hopital Saint-André.
Well,in 1789,20% of the french pop used to live in the towns.It became 50% in 1934.
This means that in 1789 4 million people(in France) used to live in cities.So i think there were many many cities over 10,000 inhabitants in Europe.Celts n sedentary native americans can be considered as urbanised.Towns n villages were shelters.They used to cultivate n then come back to the village(there were no personal farms).Look at how many iroquois there were.25 000 in 1600 n 5000 in the 1780's.100 000 in 1600 if u count the other iroquoian tribes.5 5000-inhabitant towns n u got the whole league.
And about an empty world...in France 98% of the land is occupied by country n 2% by towns.It's like that all around the world.But this isn't important.u have to look at the pop.More than 75% of the pop live on 2% of the territory in France.
But i don't think the fact to have cities is an achievment.The main factor that does a civ is its accomplishments.
Btw,akka where do u live in Bordeaux?I live near the Hopital Saint-André.
Ribannah
Fighter Druid
Let's play with the figures some more, shall we? 
(1) 1789 is not 1492.
(2) The quote I gave said towns, not cities. Only a few towns had over 10,000 inhabitants. There were many, many smaller ones, and around each town there were villages with even less inhabitants.
(3) Before 1492, there were (estimate) 5 million people in North America. Diseases (and early killings) turned this into 500,000 (estimate).
(4) The league had probably not more than a dozen towns max in the 17th century, some struggling, at any given time. The Onondaga and Oneida had only one each.
(5) OTOH, AFAIK there were no Iroquois 'villages' (of say less than 400 people) as there were so many in Europe. To spread defenses thin / build so many palisades would not have been practical.
But I fully agree with you that accomplishments make the civ, not its size!
(1) 1789 is not 1492.
(2) The quote I gave said towns, not cities. Only a few towns had over 10,000 inhabitants. There were many, many smaller ones, and around each town there were villages with even less inhabitants.
(3) Before 1492, there were (estimate) 5 million people in North America. Diseases (and early killings) turned this into 500,000 (estimate).
(4) The league had probably not more than a dozen towns max in the 17th century, some struggling, at any given time. The Onondaga and Oneida had only one each.
(5) OTOH, AFAIK there were no Iroquois 'villages' (of say less than 400 people) as there were so many in Europe. To spread defenses thin / build so many palisades would not have been practical.
But I fully agree with you that accomplishments make the civ, not its size!
Damien
Emperor
(1)I think there were many cities in Europe in 1492 too.
(2)I don't know the difference between towns and cities(doesn't exist in french and german)
(3)That's right.It's incredible.C the territory covered by northern america n all the fertile lands.they could have been way more.
There were 10 million inhabitants in France in 1600 n 60 million in western europe.
What other writings had the iroquois except the constitution written in 114 wampums?
(2)I don't know the difference between towns and cities(doesn't exist in french and german)
(3)That's right.It's incredible.C the territory covered by northern america n all the fertile lands.they could have been way more.
There were 10 million inhabitants in France in 1600 n 60 million in western europe.
What other writings had the iroquois except the constitution written in 114 wampums?
JoeM
Imperator
Town = Ville
City = Grande ville
Sorry couldn't resist it.
Seriously though a city differs from a town in Britain when the Crown designates a town to be signifcant enough, so it is somewhat arbitrary. I also heard once that a city (British) must contain a Cathedral.
Damien
Emperor
u're forgiven.And from what size does it become a city?
i guess 100,000 inhabitants
Akka
Moody old mage.
France had MUCH more inhabitants than that. In the 1200's it had 19 millions inhabitants already.
Et pour ce qui est de l'endroit où j'habite, c'est pas loin du Jardin Public, place Paul Doumer.
JoeM
Imperator
We've had this thread billions of times before (that's a million million in English), I'll say it again:
When you ask why this nation you're asking what is a civilisation and what is a nation?
When you ask why this nation you're asking what is a civilisation and what is a nation?
JoeM
Imperator
DaSilva,
I thought so, but how come towns compete every so often to become a city? If a cathedral gives you the status then there shouldn't be towns competing for city status should there...?
I thought so, but how come towns compete every so often to become a city? If a cathedral gives you the status then there shouldn't be towns competing for city status should there...?
Ribannah
Fighter Druid
In a city you'd expect to find 'everything' (including a flag, city walls, possibly a cathedral and a university). A town is smaller, would in medieval Europe most likely be governed by a simple nobleman living in a nearby castle.
On wampums, treaties and records of important events, mostly.
On less durable surfaces, messenges.
On paper, a lot of writings by the Jesuits at first, by themselves in later times.
Of course today the Iroquois use computers like everyone else.
And last saturday I got a well-preserved copy of Longfellows 'Song of Hiawatha' for only E 8,- in a second-hand bookstore!
Damien
Emperor
I was talking about pictographs actually.
Were the decisions taken by councils written on durable surfaces?What are the oldest pictographs(i'm talking about the iroquois)?
I found a very interesting sitehttp://www.wsu.edu
sites of universities are often good.
About the fact that this thread was discussed a billion times;well i apologize a trillion times but i think this sort of discussion is interesting and moreover it has never been discussed so deeply AFAIK.A member from Tokyo called Julien threw the discussion once saying the americans shouldn't be in the game n that europeans should be a civ but he was confusing with what's called a world-i.e the western world- n that's represented by the city styles in civ.A nation is defined as a group of people reckoning themselves a common history n the same values.
A civ(to me) is a nation(not necessary modern ;the greeks or romans;babylonians for example) that has achieved accomplishments forming the common memory n pride.
P.S.Akka,t'es a un km et demi de chez moi alors j'habite rue Desfourniel.A quel lycée vas-tu(si tu y vas encore)
Were the decisions taken by councils written on durable surfaces?What are the oldest pictographs(i'm talking about the iroquois)?
I found a very interesting sitehttp://www.wsu.edu
sites of universities are often good.
About the fact that this thread was discussed a billion times;well i apologize a trillion times but i think this sort of discussion is interesting and moreover it has never been discussed so deeply AFAIK.A member from Tokyo called Julien threw the discussion once saying the americans shouldn't be in the game n that europeans should be a civ but he was confusing with what's called a world-i.e the western world- n that's represented by the city styles in civ.A nation is defined as a group of people reckoning themselves a common history n the same values.
A civ(to me) is a nation(not necessary modern ;the greeks or romans;babylonians for example) that has achieved accomplishments forming the common memory n pride.
P.S.Akka,t'es a un km et demi de chez moi alors
j'habite rue Desfourniel.A quel lycée vas-tu(si tu y vas encore)
Ribannah
Fighter Druid
Bonsoir Damien,
It is perfectly alright to discuss something that has been discussed extensively before! It only proves that the topic is, indeed, very interesting.
Only the major decisions were recorded, after all it was quite a job to make a wampum belt. But the confederate council didn't convene that often - much unlike modern-day parliament that decides on a zillion little details every week or so.
The pictographs as such weren't uniquely Iroquois, many North American tribes had them. The origin is probably in pottery, but I wouldn't be surprised if their was a Meso- or South-American influence (which, in turn, might be linked to Chinese refugees). Much of this is speculation, there is still a lot we don't know about the history of writing.
Akka, your and Damien's estimates of the French population could both be right. Remember that there was the Black Plague in between, as well as certain persecutions.
It is perfectly alright to discuss something that has been discussed extensively before! It only proves that the topic is, indeed, very interesting.
Only the major decisions were recorded, after all it was quite a job to make a wampum belt. But the confederate council didn't convene that often - much unlike modern-day parliament that decides on a zillion little details every week or so.
The pictographs as such weren't uniquely Iroquois, many North American tribes had them. The origin is probably in pottery, but I wouldn't be surprised if their was a Meso- or South-American influence (which, in turn, might be linked to Chinese refugees). Much of this is speculation, there is still a lot we don't know about the history of writing.
Akka, your and Damien's estimates of the French population could both be right. Remember that there was the Black Plague in between, as well as certain persecutions.
Akka
Moody old mage.
At the time of the Black Plague, Europe was 75 millions inhabitant big, and France 19.
There was about 1 dead out of 3 inhabitant, which would end in something like 50 millions survivors in Europe and 12-13 millions in France.
JoeM
Imperator
Well how do you define 'accomplishments forming a common memory (and) pride'?
Surely any group could claim this? What most people think of as Ancient civilisations, such as the Romans or Egyptians is because records, written and otherwise physical, exist to this day. Whereas the Picts for example are not nearly as easily recognised by the common man, nor were they know for their city-building qualities.
The point I'm trying to make is that ancient civ's are easier to define as their qualities are more easily defined, whereas a young *nation* such as the USA cannot be treated the same way.
