TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2008
- Messages
- 27,995
Of course you agree, when I asked that goofy "life or death" question on PolyCast, you just said Keshiks![]()
Keshiks are always the right answer.
Of course you agree, when I asked that goofy "life or death" question on PolyCast, you just said Keshiks![]()
It's interesting that the meta shifted so far away from conquest that a deity player is having to convince people of its value. In Civ IV and even Civ V vanilla (under very different rules than now) conquering cities was considered a dominant strategy...
Civ V's happiness/per city tech penalty puts a damper on that, but if you can come up with the happiness and are not taking complete junk then consentient is right, it is not only viable but desirable/makes the game easier.
...at least compared to Brazil and Polynesia
Don’t do that! The core brilliance with consentient’s approach is ranking against The Neutrals. That mechanic really helps distinguish between civs that might feel pretty much the same.
Okay, yes, consentient scores Chateaux as 0/5 and obviously that is very harsh. Let’s say you scores Chateaux as 3/5. (That is pretty generous when you look at elements that scored 4/5 or 5/5.)
That would rank France with Polynesia (which you agree with) but still well below Brazil.
If you want to take consentient to task on the rankings, you can't make a case by being subjective, you have to attack each rating elements.
So, even if you are correct about Chateaux being decent, France is still objectively weak. This is why I stopped arguing about consentient dramatically under valuing Dromons. Worse case, any one civ is correct to within three points. You can quibble about some details, but in terms of the general picture, it is spot on! Moreover, I think I would only add a few points here and there, but not take any away. But adding a few points would only make the relative ranking more muddled.
Don’t do that! The core brilliance with consentient’s approach is ranking against The Neutrals. That mechanic really helps distinguish between civs that might feel pretty much the same.
At this point, it is already turn 250+ and your cities don't need growth anymore, and they don't really need production either, since all your cultural stuff has already been build. And if you do a wide domination/culture game, like I often do, Chaetaux become really great.
consentient scores Chateaux as 0/5 and obviously that is very harsh.
I would rate Chateaux as 1/5 (the fact that they cannot be clumped means that not much tourism will be obtained from them);
While this approach is OK, it does overlook one aspect; synergy or discontinuity between different abilities (most of the time because these abilities affect different VCs so you cannot just add them up). Say in most cases 1+1 =2, but some cases 1+1 = 3 or 1+1 = 1.5.
For example: Arabia. Bazaar is rated 4/5 and Camels are 5/5. But if you add them are they really a 9? Hardly. Extra copies are great, and camels are great, but I don't think you're going to find that many customers when you are warmonger public enemy #1; in that case Bazaar just means you have 4 extra copies of your main lux sitting at home with absolutely nothing to do with them.
And if you choose to play peaceful and trade with all 7 AIs on the map, then what use are camel archers except maybe for defending or being a military presence, dissuading attack from other civs? So 4+5 maybe = 7.
Wide violent culture is my favourite strategy. But one of two things happens: I stop short of full domination purely because I want to win the game by another means, or keep playing for practise, etc....in which case, I've already won, so anything that happens afterwards cannot be considered 'making the win easier'. OR I cannot complete the domination sweep and am forced to go culture, in which case something that gives a bit of extra tourism cannot be said to make winning easier. If I'm not purposefully stopping the domination sweep, then it means there is a runaway, at least one. That runaway is likely to have a ton of culture. What makes overcoming them easier is tourism modifiers, not raw tourism, for the most part. Assuming they went for a different Ideology than me, then there isn't much I can do to change those modifiers except put a Diplomat in their capital. Trade routes are present or not, OB available or not (usually the latter if I've wiped out several civs), and I'm not gonna get to NVC/Internet any quicker without more GP or faith to buy them, or something that boosts science directly.
I had been considering bumping this to 1/5. I want a proper test. So let's lobby Acken for a DCL game with France in the near future.
You make a fair point, but all models have different weaknesses, and I opted for a relatively simple model, rather than an overly complicated one. Did you see the 'Shinier Tech tree' some guy posted a few weeks ago. Chap must have spent hours creating it, but for me it just made the whole thing really confusing. Simplicity is best, IMO.
If you are not at war with a civ, they will always give you 3 GPT for a lux if they have it, no matter how much they hate you. Maybe you don't know this because you aren't an appalling warmonger that ushers in new Dark Ages?
Yes, but this is exactly the point of this thread. People overlook conquest. IF you play purely peacefully, you're nerfing your game, unless your goal is SV as fast as possible. Speed of win is not the same as ease of winning. Let's say you open Tradition and turtle until Chivalry with Harun. Then you can double the size of your empire without pissing anyone off too much if you do it properly, and you have the happiness to support it, and our BPT goes through the roof. I'm more and more convinced Arabia are top 3.
. IF you play purely peacefully, you're nerfing your game, unless your goal is SV as fast as possible. Speed of win is not the same as ease of winning. Let's say you open Tradition and turtle until Chivalry with Harun. Then you can double the size of your empire without pissing anyone off too much if you do it properly, and you have the happiness to support it, and our BPT goes through the roof. I'm more and more convinced Arabia are top 3.
I'm not gonna get drawn into a 'who's more appalling?' match but I'm a firm believer in razing, a bigger believer in wiping civs out completely, and I'll DoW just to kill settlers of civs that are trying to reestablish their selves. I've still managed to always get 3GPT.
But my point to KB was that if I have 5 spare lux, that's 15 GPT. Not nothing.
Ethiopia has kinda neutral starts, but given its inflexibility as far as the number of cities goes, I'd move it down at least one tier. Wide play with Ethiopia is self-defeating.
3. Kasbah. I think it's better to have an unemployed citizen than work a blank desert tile. Kasbahs on desert hills are nice, but mines are probably nicer in most cases (or farms if they have access to fresh water). UI rating = 0/5 (sorry, Ahmad)
2. Cataphract = Mounted units that are slower than the mounted units of the Neutrals? Why bother? Ooh, it's slightly tougher! Yes, and with Honor the Neutrals can have Horsemen that are comparably tough AND faster. Or I could play as a civ with an actual great mounted UU. UU rating = -1/5.
Yo Consentient, good thread but I cannot disagree more with this. Ethiopia is a top 6 wide civ (Egypt, Maya, China, Poland, Persia).
The Stele is strong enough that you can completely ignore the Ethiopian UA and UU.
No. Because that would result in less faith than a decent dirt pantheon, where you often have more than 2 faith per city. In the Korea liberty map that some of us are playing around with now, I took Earth Mother, self-founded 5 cities, and have a load of faith from that. It would be less if I just had Steles.Would you take a pantheon bonus that simply read "+2 faith per city"?
Of course, a pantheon like that would be reason enough on its own to go Liberty and spam cities.
With Ethiopia my default plan is to go for Holy Warriors and empty out as much space for cities of my own as I possibly can.
I also think you have underrated Egypt the most by far, this is easily a top tier civ. It's nearly as good as Maya IMO. Amazing UA, even on Deity there will be a wonder or two that is within your reach and worth building - Pyramids, Oracle, Eiffel Tower, Louvre, etc.
Obviously this doesn't really make it safe to attempt wonders that were not really safe to attempt for "the neutrals" either, but that's not the point. This also shaves turns off of national wonders - faster NC is pretty nice.
However it's the other uniques that are this civ's real strength.
The UU - a spammable +1 movement chariot archer, very good.
Now the UB, I have no idea why you have rated this only 2/5. This is one of the best UBs in the game, it's a maintenance-free Temple that also gives +2 happiness, that is just amazing and a big incentive to go wide.
Self-built wide empires on Deity are just suboptimal, given the current state of the game. That's just a fact. While if you have a great map you could have 6-8 cities by T65 with Ethiopia, the Neutrals could have gone 3 city Construction and sweep in and take those self-built cities from you. These kinds of wide empires are rare, and when they are erected, they are vulnerable. A T60 from a Dido, Monty or Oda will tear it apart.
If I ignore them, then they have a UB which, even if I gave it 5/5 would mean their overall advantages were less than a huge number of civs on the list. The Stele does not make it easier to win. It makes it marginally easier to get a religion. But with the latest patch, all religions are gone before T60 maybe 80% of the time. Everyone goes Piety these days, it seems. Piety is the new Tradition for AI club.
Spamming cities does not help to win on Deity, though, does it?
Using faith to buy units, use them to raze cities and then rebuild cities? Are you serious? Or am I misunderstanding you?
All the Wonders you mentioned can be easily gotten anyway. Getting them faster doesn't make winning easier.
Shaving turns does not mean easier wins. Aristocracy gives a Wonder bonus. If it was instead the Neutral's UA it would not make them top tier.
If they are the real strength, why not mention them first?
On flat terrain, for early rushes, I agree. But it doesn't upgrade well. Not all sweeps can be completed quick enough on Deity to make them a really effective UU.
Happiness is nice for a Wide empire, and it saves gold, but that doesn't really make it easier to win, does it? I don't struggle with happiness when I go for conquest.
The more I see posts and arguments along this line the more I think that the civs are somewhat more balanced than the devs mostly get credit for.
I very much agree. I have won Deity games with Byzantium and Venice and lost games with Poland and Babylon. So I think god tier vastly overstates it. For me, the biggest take-away of this exercise of comparing against The Neutrals really shows how close the civs are. The map RNG, not so much the starting dirt -- but who are my neighbors -- ends up outweighing my civ selection by at least an order of magnitude. And of course, player skill is on order of magnitude difference over map RNG. But of all the variables, civ selection is one that a player can control -- so the attention paid to it is quite understandable.
I had been considering bumping this to 1/5. I want a proper test. So let's lobby Acken for a DCL game with France in the near future.
The importance of science has been over exaggerated for a long time in this game. It's undoubtably very powerful having a tech advantage, but given the potential multipliers in promotions etc. perhaps not the be all and end all. I'm not convinced that this game is as black and white as is often stated. I think often when a civ or unit is criticized, it shows a lack of understanding of how to leverage it's benefits. For example in this list the characterization of Babylon as a lower tier conqueror is perhaps underselling them. Their advantage lies in being able to either a) conquer with more advanced (higher base damage) units earlier or b) focus less on science during the early game and build more units to remain competitive. Their advantage comes in working out how to leverage their unique elements.
I've already made it a habit to get Construction before Philosophy and go look for wars early with archers while my cities are busy with Libraries and stuff. I mean for all theI can possibly get there is simply not enough
in cities early to take advantage of it. Getting Universities on turn 140 (blasphemy!
) suddenly doesn't look so bad if I almost guaranteed that any city I take in war or peace deal is going to have one, AND enough population to staff the specialists immediately... those cities even come with a free Religion, without me spending half a
dime. What's not to like?