1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

An alternative Deity Tier List (a.k.a. 'Don't Forget About Conquest')

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by consentient, Mar 13, 2015.

  1. robaker

    robaker Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2014
    Messages:
    26
    Okay. Fair enough.

    Normal great generals cannot keep up with keshiks (or 5 movement cavalries). No matter how many great generals you have they cannot keep up with 5 movement units unless they get Lightning Warfare much later in the game. You want 5 movement khans around, not 2 movement great generals, when you're conquering your enemies with keshiks because that's the most vital period of every Mongolian game.

    Yes, khans' healing is much more powerful. (1) it heals more than Medic II right from the start. (2) khans have 5 movement versus your warrior that has 2. You can keep around a 4-5 movement unit around to act as a medic, but (3) khans can overlap with another military unit in the same tile which allows for more maneuverability and therefore doesn't get blocked or get in the way of other units.

    First of all, when it comes to combat, Mongolian units are arguably some of the least terrain-dependent in the game, so what you said about terrain should be considered an advantage for Mongolia. In other words, bad terrain (and the Great Wall) can mess up many other civs, but it messes up Mongolia less - the reasons why are obvious.

    Promotions are never a problem for keshiks, especially with Military Tradition and especially on higher difficulties due to the unit spamming by your enemies. One problem might be gaining too many promotions with keshiks (I'm talking level 10+) making getting promotions with cavalries and landships exceedingly time-consuming. But if you've already got Logistics and March then that's already good considering that cavalries are used to harass and mop up units not bum rush them. Furthermore, even if you have keshiks with no promotions, when upgraded to cavalries they will gain 10 experience per attack with Military Tradition (10 total attacks to get March). It's not an exaggeration to say that by the time you unlock cavalries you will have PLENTY of keshiks that have March and Logistics, and together with khans healing and bonus combat I would say that they're already uber. It's not just you that underrates melee horse (and armored units too I'm assuming) - I wouldn't go out of my way to use them over other choices of units if I were using most of the other civs, but when it comes to Mongolia you already have a horde of highly-promoted keshiks lounging around so you might as well continue to upgrade them and use them, especially considering that they synergize well with khans and have +1 movement.

    It's REALLY hard not to do a good job with keshiks... That's kinda like saying that Arabia may have difficulty getting gold or Korea may have difficulty getting science. Yes, there may be instances where such a thing happens, but more often than not they don't run into such problems. Later on, autocracy spies help with getting technologies, at least on higher difficulties.
     
  2. Shark Diver

    Shark Diver King

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2013
    Messages:
    705
    Location:
    Grand Cayman/San Diego
    Good points, and it's a fun discussion. In the interest of debate, I'll be brief (so I can go play a game), and just comment on the above quote.

    Perhaps it's a warring style issue, but I find that a Medic Meatshield takes care of an awful lot of healing needs if I'm playing a vanilla civ. I also play a pretty disciplined warring style; melee moves 1 step and digs in/pillages, ranged units knock out defenders. This doesn't leave much room or need for the Khan's movement.

    I used to play marathon games on the largest map size, and Khans were ridiculously powerful with the extra room. In jungle/hills, there just isn't that much room for more than a few mobile units to do much good. The movement advantage can be wasted at times, which is why I find them terrain dependent. In contrast, I can't think of a condition where my favorite UU, the Incan Slinger, isn't dominant.
     
  3. twilson1972

    twilson1972 Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    164
    Interesting list, i have to say though aside from korea/babylon/poland my easiest SP win was with venice.

    Also i would say that while on civfanatics most play pangea or continents, many others not on here may well play small continents/large islands. I know the argument about AI naval incompetence- and its a valid one but i wouldnt assume everyone avoids water as a result.
     
  4. consentient

    consentient Domination!

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    3,330
    I'm not assuming people are avoiding water. I'm just saying that most people here play Pang/Cont/Fract, and I certainly do, so this list is geared towards that.

    It seems pretty simple that water maps are night and day different from land maps. With water, it's not only easier, but the starting location is everything. Good start location = win.
     
  5. consentient

    consentient Domination!

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    3,330
    Songhai moved up to 2nd tier on account of 3x city capture gold.
     
  6. beetle

    beetle Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Messages:
    5,922
    Location:
    Frederick, MD
    I am not sure that the combined 4/5 rating on Songhai UA is fair, given the other UA in that range, but it is close enough. This also illustrates my point about how close the tiers are. Since you are editing, will you now delete the bit about “We shall see if they ever get picked on the DCL”?
     
  7. consentient

    consentient Domination!

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    3,330
    If you had played my game, you would be sure. I was getting huge amounts of gold from city capture. Enough to buy 2/3 units.

    Of course I'll delete that bit.
     
  8. Redaxe

    Redaxe Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,519
    This is rather late to bring this subject up but I think there's one calculation you might be missing out on regarding Dromon vs a barb galley or trireme. The Dromon gets a +50% bonus vs Naval Melee which applies to the Dromon defending and its ranged attack. So that 8 strength is effectively 12 defending from & 15 attacking Triremes, galleys, Quinqueremes and Caravels. So your trireme takes more damage attacking a Dromon and the Dromon gets effectively a 15 strength attack on its own turn so that trireme will be dead in 2 turns at the latest and the Dromon will be fully healed up in about another 2 turns.

    Spoiler :


    That said the Dromon suffers much the same problems that most early game UUs do on Diety - the AI begins nearly a full era ahead of the player so there's less time to use UU. I have used them to great effect defensively though. Forward settle a coastal city toward an AI and Dromons are very powerful at holding your territory. I've actually held off AI carpets that would otherwise have made me lose if it wasn't for Dromons.

    Dromons are best given the upgrade against land units which is 33% (whereas anti-naval promotions are only +15%) so a Rank 2 Dromon can have a strength of about 16 against a land unit which is much better than the crappy +15% bonus that composite bowmen get per level and the Dromon gets this against units in both rough and open terrain. Think about this for a second you have enemy catapults and composite bowmen positioning to attack your city. You hit them with a 30exp Dromon with +66% strength vs land units so your hitting a strength 7 catapult with a ~16.6 ranged attack. I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned this....

    So the dromon beats the composite bowman hands down when it comes to attacking land and naval units. They are a little more squishy with their low strength of 8 which means that city attacks can be fatal but personally I think they're incredible on the defensive. And a strength of 8 is still more than a composite bowman... So really the Dromon is best seen as a 4 movement composite bowman on steroids that is confined to the water.
    Then consider the hammer cost a Composite bowman is 75 whereas a Dromon is only 56....


    Key thing is to keep your frontier cities on coastal tiles as much as possible and of course like any naval unit they should never be used solo - never engage enemy ships with less than 2-3 units unless your 100% sure you can win.
     
  9. claudiupb

    claudiupb King

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2014
    Messages:
    767
    Location:
    Romania
    They can be an alternative to the CB rush since they come sooner, and cost 56 hammers vs 75 for the CB. So if there is enough shallow water around they are quite good. You still need land units to absorb damage and take cities since you get no melee naval units. But once Galleass are in the game, it becomes quite hard to use them unless you keep them in cities for defense.
     
  10. beetle

    beetle Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Messages:
    5,922
    Location:
    Frederick, MD
    The other UU is good for that. Byzantium needs so much luck: (1) Faith-Pantheon friendly dirt. (2) Coastal cap for one UU. (3) AH to reveal convenient early horses. But at least (1) and (2) are revealed at the start.

    I never had trouble with AI Galleass since my Dromons had logistics and range at that point (and that was with me heavily favoring the land promotion over the naval one). My bigger frustration is that Dromons upgraded to Galleass lose a point of movement (and were still stuck to shallow water) -- so the net result is no better focus fire than before the upgrade. They stopped being really useful until Navigation (since all the soft targets were gone).
     
  11. Tyrvos

    Tyrvos Cu Chulainn

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2013
    Messages:
    214
    Location:
    Taxachusetts
    Overall, I like how your giving a different view on the rating of civs. My only criticism of the methods really is the lack of accounting synergy (maybe including a synergy score after the UA, UU, UU/UB/UI scores?).

    For example, I noticed you just had a good game with songhai, the UU in itself isn't special, but with that UA they really work together and those types of relationships should be recognized. You kind of recognized it with denmark, since the ski infrantry on it's own isn't too solid but in most cases you'll really be upgrading to them so you are giving the ex-berserkers 25% bonus in those terrains and extra movement points again. Another off the top of my head would be like the Sipahi (I know you just love lancers), who actually make the lancer useful as a reconnaissance Renaissance (I just wanted to put those two words together) unit to supplement your Janissaries you are get in the same era.

    But using the idea of a neutral civ gives a good basis I think.

    There's a few things I wanted to touch on, I'm not arguing for a change of score, everybody is going to rate things different, but I just wanted to correct some points and maybe provide a different viewpoint.

    I'll mostly just use Carthage as an example because that's the civ I have most experience with.

    Before I start anything, you don't have to actually perform the kill with elephants from what I've seen, you get Great General points from attacking and defending. Specifically, for melee units, it is as follows, african elephants with the GG 2 promotion in parenthesis:

    Melee attacking: 5 (10) points
    Melee defending: 4 (8)
    Melee defending from range: 2 (4)

    Comparing African elephants to a neutral horseman:

    • Pros:
    • +2 strength
    • -10% strength of enemies (making your cb's do more damage, btw)
    • Faster GG production
    • -50g to upgrade to a knight (who retains the GG production) (50g instead of 100g)
    • No horse requirement

      Cons:
    • +25 hammers
    • - 1 Movement

    Really what you are getting, compared to a neutral civ, is a hybrid between a swordsman (same str but + 1 movement) and horseman that costs neither's strategic resources. So not only are you not restricted by resource, but you can sell any horses and iron you have for some extra gold, because you really don't need either unit anymore. Also, you want to play them more in the infantry's role because the debuff, as you say, essentially drops the enemy's units down a difficulty level. These means your archers will be doing more damage if your elephants are next to the enemy. And although the 25 hammer increase is a bad thing, I feel the 50% reduction in upgrade cost really helps mitigate that.

    The use of triremes is obviously based on the individual, but with a 30% increase (to 13 str) in strength you essentially get an aquatic horseman to help take that coastal city after your land force has beaten it up. But agreed, the 30% means a lot in naval warfare, but in city warfare you'll notice it less.

    Comparing to a neutral civ, I'd say free harbors are pretty strong. No maintenance, free city connections before you get roads to them (if you even can). Overall it's strength is in more opportunities. More trade routes are available, external trade routes will give +2 gold, and you can settle farther while still being in range for internal trade routes (so more settling options). Usually, I just take advantage of this by focusing even more on internal food trade routes so I get more money from the connections. But you still build roads as carthage, you just don't need to as soon so your workers can focus on other tasks initially.

    Really, it just gives you more options when you are attacking for just moving your armies, it can be pretty convenient, but ya, nothing special.


    Off topic, but to be fair, they chose one of the few Brythonic Celtic languages we know anything about and the only kilt that really differs from the others are some Irish kilts, since they can sometimes be just one solid color.
     
  12. Redaxe

    Redaxe Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,519
    The other thing I forgot to mention (which is also taken for granted) you can base a Dromon in a city and launch ranged attacks. Why is this significant? Well no other civ can do this until the Medieval Galleas.
    So with an archer & a dromon in a city you can launch 3 ranged attacks which as I mentioned above makes your coastal cities very strong to defend early on. A smart player will build a city on a hill because that allows the Dromon to fire ranged attacks over other hills and rough terrain. This is even better once you get the ranged promotion. It can help offensively too... Once you goad an AI into attacking you after forward settling them, you can incinerate their army with Dromons and either launch an attack and capture their cities when their pants are down or ask them for gold in exchange for peace....

    I do think this is relevant because Byzantium being a religious civ should play wide and settle as many early cities as possible to help with faith. The defensive uses for the Dromon will ensure that your expanded cities will be safe from AI attacks.

    The cataphract I guess is sorta similiar- Undoubtedly it's best used defensively but it can help take a city although on Diety you probably won't get a lot of chances to do this.
    As someone mentioned it's basically a stronger version of a swordsman with 3 movement and importantly can move after attacking so you retreat onto a rough tile after you attack which gives you the defensive terrain bonus on the AI's turn.
    Offensively though it's let down by the lack of movement. 3 movement makes it a lot harder to pillage tiles & position for attacking cities. But it has a reasonable strength value and allows you to ignore iron working so you can focus on beelining Theology...

    So ultimately I'd say that on Diety Byzantium is best played wide Liberty/Piety hybrid with a focus especially on coastal city expansion using stronger UU's defensively to counter the AI's larger armies. In that way I'd argue it's similar to Ethiopia or Shoshone.
     
  13. consentient

    consentient Domination!

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    3,330
    Some quick replies to recent posts:-

     
  14. Tyrvos

    Tyrvos Cu Chulainn

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2013
    Messages:
    214
    Location:
    Taxachusetts
    Then in all fairness, I don't see how the companion calvary could receive a 2/5 since it is an improvement of the same unit as Carthage's uu.
     
  15. consentient

    consentient Domination!

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    3,330
    Well for starters, it has a lot more mobility. Also I'm pretty sure CC keep the Extra Movement on Upgrade. I'll have to check that. CC suffers from the same general obsolescence as the AFE but let's face it, you'd much rather have a few units with 5 mvt than 3, wouldn't you?

    Please stop trying to compare one civ with another though; the point is that an AFE is not an improvement on the Horseman, IMO, because it has less mvt. I think that makes it harder to use, not easier. Whereas the CC > Horseman of the Neutrals. Objectively so.
     
  16. Tyrvos

    Tyrvos Cu Chulainn

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2013
    Messages:
    214
    Location:
    Taxachusetts
    The only improvement that stays on upgrade for companion calvary is their 50% further contribution to great generals. My point wasn't to compare to Greece, rather if African elephants are considered bad because horsemen units in their very essence are useless because of when they occur, then that should apply to all other horseman units.
     
  17. claudiupb

    claudiupb King

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2014
    Messages:
    767
    Location:
    Romania
    The horse units should stay behind, or in line with the ranged units. They do suffer defensively so using them as blocker units is inefficient, slow melee units are better at blocking and should be used in front of ranged units. This leaves horse units with some very specific roles, either come in front during the turn to provide flanking bonuses and occasionally do a shot, let blocker units advance, while the horse units retreat. If you don't plan on advancing, let infantry units fortify and horse units can also advance, attack and retreat, while range units do additional damage. Also, in some cases you can avoid the ZOC and attack a blocked range unit. There are of course many uses for horse units, an all favored use is capturing 1 HP cities from 4 tiles away. A personal favorite of mine is to pillage strategic tiles during the siege of a city (unique luxuries, strategic resources, etc).

    The horsemen has 4 movement points so, you can come from 2 tiles behind, attack and retreat one tile. Or pillage and retreat.

    An African Forest Elephant cannot do that. If it attacks from 2 tiles behind, it remains in front and it will most likely die. It can only move 2 tiles, provide the feared elephant bonus for ranged units and then retreat. But this means you need to leave one tile open for the elephant to retreat, so on top of the AFE not being able to attack, you have on less ranged attack. I don't think that the feared elephant bonus compensates for that. The only thing that an AFE can do as good as a horseman is capture a city from out of range, but even that is nerfed because of the movement.

    On the other hand, companion cavalry, not only it can do all the things a horseman can, but the extra movement adds a lot more possibilities. An extra movement point means you can get more flanking bonuses since you can better surround units. You can come form 3 tiles away, attack, retreat one tile, or come from 2 tiles away, attack, retreat 2 tiles. So it is clearly more flexible, and this makes it better. So even if the horsemen becomes obsolete, you can still use companion cavalry since you can better retreat and keep them safe. By attacking more, you get more promotions, and will get mobility faster, so when you upgrade to knights/cavalry you will continue to have very mobile units.
     
  18. Kriogen

    Kriogen Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    Messages:
    165
    I am not disputing where you put Austria or the fact that its a bad idea to merry CS as a way of early expansion. CS are way to valuable as CS. It's why I kill Austria (or Venice) ASAP. In one game I even killed Austria with my germanic brutes (i was lucky and got lots of them, plus Vienna was really close).

    It's not really that important as it's not a very strong UA. More for a new player so he/she will not thing its a totaly useless ability. Maybe change into something like:
    - if you are evil wormanger, mid/late game, on some maps (continents) it can be used as a quick (5 turns) way to get a base of operation on "another" continent.
    - sometimes CS can be really close to AIs capitol. Maybe even within bomber range. Plus points if you have airports (but minus points as you are teching slow and no Stealth/X-Coms yet :p )

    Warmongers tool. Can't use it very often, but not totally useless.

    It should still remain 1/5. But not so others whine less :)
     
  19. beetle

    beetle Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Messages:
    5,922
    Location:
    Frederick, MD
    I still do not understand your hate for the dromon. Is the trireme too situational? As with the lancer UU, trireme UU start off with a handicap, but at least the upgrade path is decent! The only use trireme have that the dromon does not is capping a city -- and in this very post you point out that a spearman with optics can serve that role.

    Fragile is a mischaracterization as in the era they're built, they tear up everything on land or sea.
     
  20. Tyrvos

    Tyrvos Cu Chulainn

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2013
    Messages:
    214
    Location:
    Taxachusetts
    I was honestly only referring to the movement speed of the quinquereme when I related it to the horseman, so that was a bad explanation on my part. Since quins are already 30% stronger than regular triremes, I'll normally just focus on coastal raider instead since they'll take out all the early naval threats anyways. With a barracks and honor tree focus you can hit coastal raider 2-3 rather early. With coastal raider 2 alone, quins have 18.2 strength against a city, compared to a trireme that would have 14 combat strength with coastal raider 2. That's not bad for only 45 hammers and the gold you'll get from damaging the city.
     

Share This Page