An Honest Debate of Abortion

[caketastydelish]

That's an extreme. It's not encouragement.

Providing all women with prenatal healthcare would help avoid many abortions, especially coupled with financial support for mothers who wouldn't otherwise be able to care for their babies.

Good, I like that we're on the same page. Abortion is not something I'm fond of, although sometime it is the best choice in nothing but bad options. And if GUYS were the ones that got pregnant, as a guy, I would sure as heck be pro-choice. So of course I'm going to give girls that favor.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I should add another caveat to my above comment: If the child's own parent (Mother or father) could have donated the blood and didn't, they should have been charged with murder, in the same way that refusing to spend money on food for just any child who was starving would be wrong, but refusing to provide for your own child is child neglect.

Make up your mind. Child neglect or murder?

What if the parents are Jehovah's Witnesses? You know religious freedom and all that.

I'd allow them not to donate the blood in that case... but if someone else did I'd also take away the kid from them. Nobody has the right to watch their child die when they can easily do something about it.

So someone's religion can be a get-out-of-jail card with regard to murder and/or child neglect in your view.

What a horrible thought process.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Presumably he meant Negligent Homicide.

 

[LucyDuke]

So someone's religion can be a get-out-of-jail card with regard to murder and/or child neglect in your view.

What a horrible thought process.

Incoherent bollocks anyway, since it's his religion only applies when I decide his religion "counts". The evil beliefs have to be packaged with a bunch of other crap that I approve of. If it's a collection of unfamiliar absurdities it'll be written off every time.

Plenty of things trump religious freedom. Religious beliefs that offend your conscience don't deserve any goddamn respect. Don't let your brain go limp just because someone said Jesus.

I dunno what you guys were talking about.

 

[warpus]

I would like useless and warpus to explain why they believe in restrictions on late term abortions for clarification sake.

It puts the fetus through unnecessary pain.

 

[Cutlass]

It puts the fetus through unnecessary pain.

Late term abortion is usually about medical necessity. It isn't much about birth control.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Make up your mind. Child neglect or murder?

The kind of child neglect that leads to their deaths should not be seen as different than murder...

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Not addressing the other remark means you're in agreement of my assessment?

 

[Lone Wolf]

I'd allow them not to donate the blood in that case...

Sounds inconsistent. What if someone claimed that The Serpent God tells him to kill their 3-year-old kid? Say, starve the child to death? Would you still allow them to do it based on "freedom of religion"?

 

[useless]

For all the talk of a "race" card, there really is no better way to get off scot free with something/avoid doing something than merely mentioning one's religion (ala contraception debate).

 

[Crezth]

For all the talk of a "race" card, there really is no better way to get off scot free with something/avoid doing something than merely mentioning one's religion (ala contraception debate).

Yeah, the race card is quite easily countered with the "aha! but we're all supposed to be equal! neener neener!" card, whereas the religion card is a hard mark since it observes benefits from the "1st Amendment when it's convenient for me" house rule.

 

[GhostWriter16]

So someone's religion can be a get-out-of-jail card with regard to murder and/or child neglect in your view.

What a horrible thought process.

No, but at the same point I'd have a hard time forcing someone to donate blood against their religion, even to their own child.

A bit inconsistent, since I'd honestly be wishing death on anyone who did the above.

At the very least, they should lose their child in such a case.

Anyone know why Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in blood donation for the record?

 

[Lone Wolf]

Why an exception for religion in this particular case? Criminal acts like child neglect should be criminal regardless of religion. If I join some sect that requires me to mistreat/neglect my child, and mistreat them, I deserve a proper punishment for my actions.

 

[JollyRoger]

What if avoiding over-population is aganst someone's religion and there a strict limit to the number of children a couple can have? Should the woman be able to abort excess preganancies even if abortion is otherwise illegal? Shoud she have to jump through all the government hoops, like transvaginal probes and the sort or should her religious beliefs allow her to have the abortion without government interference?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

@GW. Well, you impress me for recognising and admitting inconsistency. Something we're all subject to.

I hope it'll make you more hesitant in the harshness of your judgement eventually.

 

[GhostWriter16]

What if avoiding over-population is aganst someone's religion and there a strict limit to the number of children a couple can have?

I would oppose such a law in the first place.

 

[JollyRoger]

I would oppose such a law in the first place.

I'm not saying there is a law limiting the number of children a couple can have, I'm saying it is a sincerely held religious belief that a couple should have only one or two children. Also assume that it is a sincerely held religious belief that using birth control is a sin (but having an abortion is not) and that it is also a sincerely held religious belief that a married couple should have a prolific sex life. Should the government interfere with an abortion solely intended to help the couple keep their sincerely held religious beliefs?

 

[GhostWriter16]

I'm not saying there is a law limiting the number of children a couple can have, I'm saying it is a sincerely held religious belief that a couple should have only one or two children. Also assume that it is a sincerely held religious belief that using birth control is a sin (but having an abortion is not) and that it is also a sincerely held religious belief that a married couple should have a prolific sex life. Should the government interfere with an abortion solely intended to help the couple keep their sincerely held religious beliefs?

OK anyone who thinks that birth control is a sin but that abortion isn't is simply an idiot and not worth my time.

I don't think that religion should be a blank check for anything and everything, but I do think you can allow for a few gray areas in order to avoid persecution. In fact, one of the biggest reasons I oppose hate speech laws is because it would affect religious groups. Doesn't mean I think they should be allowed to kill people in the name of their beliefs. Its one thing to be wrong, its another thing to outright attack someone else.

As for the donation of blood issue, IIRC in America they don't require it. I don't really think you can force someone to donate in violation of their religious beliefs. If I make up a religion on the spot and claim I hold to that, too bad*. If I'm officially part of the Jehovah's Witnesses, that's kinda proof I held that belief the whole time. I don't quite feel right about taking away their religious freedoms, though I would take the kid in that case, get him out, leave them alone.

If someone refuses to give to their own child for absolutely no reason, hold them accountable.

*In the above child case.

 

[JollyRoger]

OK anyone who thinks that birth control is a sin but that abortion isn't is simply an idiot and not worth my time.

9 And Onan knew that the seed would not be his; and it came to pass when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest he should give seed to his brother.
10 And the thing which he did was evil in the sight of the LORD; and He slew him also.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0138.htm#8

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+31&version=NIV

 

[GhostWriter16]

There are sincere Christians who will tell you different, but in that first passage, Onan did wickedness because he tried to deny his brother an heir, not because it was intristically wrong to do birth control.

As for the second one, I'm not the best OT apologist, but that was a specific command of God for a specific reason, not a general allowance of murder and abortion. In fact, murder is specifically condemned.