Ancient Illyria and Ethnic Albania as Playable Civilizations!

[Shqype]

Well I know you are not too fond of Turks, but there "is" a "special" relationship between Turks and Albanians to my knowledge. I know I can't be impartial on this as I am part Albanian myself, however, I have been to Albania and when I introduced myself as a 'Turk', I got a lot of "special" attention from the locals and I have observed many Albanians receive similar attention when they visit Turkey. Albanians have always played a major part in Ottoman life and their loyalty has earned them a rightful, respectable "favored" status within the empire which lasted even up to this day in modern Turkish Republic. We don't have the same bond with other muslim nations like Arabs and Persians or Afghanis, but we do have a similar (lighter) relation with Bosniaks.

And you have "Albanians" that would rather be part of the Ottoman Empire, and even those that are anti-Gjergj Kastrioti for his actions against the Empire. You have Albanians of all types. I don't know much about your experiences, but where you went says alot about what the population feels. Most likely you went to a Muslim area of Albania, where there were loyalists in the early 1900s that supported the Ottoman Empire instead of the Albanians that fought for their independence.

This just goes to show that Albanians were almost always divided and is a big reason why they are further divided between 5 states in the Balkans.

Anyway, Albanians and Turks share some similarities because the Turks had a large impact on Albanian culture. Nearly 5 centuries of Ottoman occupation can do that For example, many Albanians drink "kafe turke" and it is a part of their custom. The homemade alcohol we drink is "raki," or Turkish "lion's milk." There are also desserts and foods that we eat which we got from the Turks. That's cultural diffusion for you.

I would have probably objected the list had I seen Salonika or Belgrade or Cetinje in that list, but it doesn't bother me as is. Perhaps you should approach from a city by city perspective if you have certain concerns and we can all learn from it.

Albanians don't claim those cities because they are not Albanian cities Belgrade and Cetinje are Serbian and Montenegrin cities. Ulqin and Gjakova are Albanian cities.

 

[Velja]

Albanians don't claim those cities because they are not Albanian cities Belgrade and Cetinje are Serbian and Montenegrin cities. Ulqin and Gjakova are Albanian cities.

I just love those "patriots" living 20,000 miles away from their country...
Ulcinj is Montenegrin, Djakovica is Serbian(so as many other cities you mentioned). They have never been part of Albanian state, therefore I found it extremely inappropriate what you did with your city-list.

 

[Shqype]

Do you know where Ulqin gets its name? From the Illyro-Albanian word "ujk," or wolf. The place had many wolves, and so it was known as Olcini (Olcinum) before the Serbs even existed, many hundreds of years ago.

Gjakove comes from "gjak," Albanian for "blood." A city in Kosova, or part of the ancient Illyrian Dardania, again before there was such thing as Serbs.

Not only do these cities have about a 95% Albanian population today, but they were settled and founded by my people's ancestors as well.

When Russia decided to help his "younger brother," Serbia, by giving them more land a nice sea port, Ulqini was included. As a result of this annexation approved by Europe in 1878, Montenegro's territory doubled. However, it was in Ulqin where a great battle took place: the indigenous Albanians living there, and in surrounding areas, took up arms to defend their land from the invading Slavs which were backed by Europe. They were successful until the Great Powers of Europe got involved and set up naval blockades. The Turks also sent in many battalions to bring the Albanians "under control" and to hand the territory to Montenegro. The Albanians ran out of gunpowder, and were surrounded on all sides by their enemies, and thus lost the battle. Ulqini fell to Montenegro, as did the surrounding areas:

As for Ulqin (Dulcigno), it was quickly occupied by Albanian troops (which the League had managed to organize in the meantime) as soon as the Turks evacuated it. The resistance of these troops in that city was so fierce, that the Great Powers had to send seventeen war vessels in order to compel the Albanians to yield, giving them a delay of three days. Paying no heed to this naval threat, the Albanians resisted for more than two months. The Turks dispatched, then, their own troops numbering eight battalions. As a result, the Albanians found themselves encircled on all sides. After a desperate battle, they surrendered to the Turks, who, after taking possession of Ulqin, handed it over to the Montenegrins in June 1880.

In regard to Ulqin, M.E. Durham wrote: "The naval demonstration was instigated by Gladstone. Dulcigno remains a monument of diplomatic blunder...it is a constant reminder to the Albanians that they may expect no justice from Europe, and it has enhanced their hatred for the Slav". (High Albania, London, 1909, p.9).

These are two articles from the New York Times which commented on the event, this "diplomatic blunder" of Europe:

Owing to the passionate and tenacious resistance of the Albanians, the battle of Ulqin received much attention in Europe and elsewhere. Some of the numerous reports published in French newspapers as well as in the New York Times in 1880 are interesting to read. Below are merely two passages picked at random:

...There are said to be 8 400 Mohammedans and 4 000 Catholic Albanians in the district with a sprinkling of Slavs and Gypsies. These people are not on the friendliest terms with their Montenegrin neighbors, but they hate the Turks quite as much...The Albanian League declares ... that the territory of Albania is sacred... (NYT, Sept. 13,4:3).

Dulcigno humorously described...

... That sweetly named town, as is well known, belongs to Albania, which in turn belongs to Turkey. The Great Powers of Europe, after a pleasant consultation in Berlin, in Prince Bismarck's back parlor, decided that it should be a good thing if Montenegro, an independent principality which from lack of seaport has hitherto been compelled to restrict itself to brigandage instead of piracy, were to have a convenient seaport like Dulcigno... (NYT, Sept, 4:5).

Of course Ulqini (Dulcigno) belonged to Albania. It was founded by them, it was inhabited by them, and still is.

They have never been part of Albanian state.

They were, but you are ignorant. Us Albanians believe that if you don't know, it's better not to talk at all

 

[Shqype]

PS-

To be sure, there were, among foreigners, individuals who considered the plight of the Albanians in an objective way and who tried to assist them. Thus Lord Goschen, British Ambassador to Constantinople, wrote to Earl Granville, Secretary of the Foreign Office of Great Britain, on July 26, 1880:

... I venture to submit to your Lordship, as I have done before, that the Albanian excitement cannot be passed over as a mere maneuver conducted by the Turks in order to mislead Europe, and evade its will. Nor can it be denied that the Albanian movement is perfectly natural. As ancient and distinct a race, as any by whom they are surrounded, they have seen the nationality of these neighboring races taken under the protection of various European Powers, and gratified in their aspirations for a more independent existence. They have seen the Bulgarians completely emancipated... They have seen the ardent desire of Europe to liberate territory inhabited by Greeks from Turkish rule. They have seen the Slavs in Montenegro protected by the great Slav Empire of the North with enthusiastic pertinence. They see the Eastern question being solved on the principle of nationality and the Balkan Peninsula being gradually divided, as it were, among various races on that principle. Meanwhile, they see that they themselves do not receive similar treatment. Their nationality is ignored, and territory inhabited by Albanians is handed over in the north to the Montenegrins, to satisfy Montenegro, the protege of Russia, and in the south to Greece, the protege of England and France. Exchanges of territory are proposed, other difficulties arise, but it is still at the expense of the Albanians, and the Albanians are handed over to Slavs and Greeks without reference to the principle of nationality. (Public Record Office, London, F.O. 424/100 pp.31-34).

That is from another unbiased source.

 

[Velja]

They were, but you are ignorant. Us Albanians believe that if you don't know, it's better not to talk at all

When? Accurate year!

Not only do these cities have about a 95% Albanian population today, but they were settled and founded by my people's ancestors as well.

So, what percentage does it take to claim a city to be Albanian?

Since when ethnic borders became actual borders?

 

[Shqype]

These "borders" that you base your whole argument ('Ulcinj' is Serbian) upon were created by Europe to please Russia WITHOUT ANY REGARD to either demographics or the history behind those cities. They were fake borders that were drawn up, which delighted Montenegro and Serbia and Russia. They are not based on any legitimate claims.

 

[Velja]

You still havent answered my questions


I just saw that you are doing copy/paste from ultra-right Albanian website

I wont be bothered any more, and you - you play your imaginative civ.

 

[Shqype]

I didn't answer them because I need something called sleep And now I have work, so I will answer them later.

I didn't copy/paste from any ultra-right Albanian website. Is the New York Times, especially articles written in the late 1800s, an "ultra-right Albanian website?" Come on, don't kid yourself.

I wont be bothered any more, and you - you play your imaginative civ.

We're better off without your tainted input So I'll continue to play an ethnic Albanian civ, and so will others, with Albanian cities.
And you can continue to play a "Serbian" mod, with many Albanian cities, which will soon even gain complete independence as Kosova Good day

 

[deo]

They have never been part of Albanian state, therefore I found it extremely inappropriate what you did with your city-list.

What do you want to say with that? What does those cities make Serbian?

 

[deo]

Well I know you are not too fond of Turks, but there "is" a "special" relationship between Turks and Albanians to my knowledge. I know I can't be impartial on this as I am part Albanian myself, however, I have been to Albania and when I introduced myself as a 'Turk', I got a lot of "special" attention from the locals and I have observed many Albanians receive similar attention when they visit Turkey. Albanians have always played a major part in Ottoman life and their loyalty has earned them a rightful, respectable "favored" status within the empire which lasted even up to this day in modern Turkish Republic. We don't have the same bond with other muslim nations like Arabs and Persians or Afghanis, but we do have a similar (lighter) relation with Bosniaks.

It's because you were our only "ally" in the balkans during the 19th century.
By ally i dont mean that you were our real ally but you actually fought for those lands and many Albanians fought alongside with you against the russians.

 

[Velja]

What do you want to say with that? What does those cities make Serbian?

Hmmm...let me see....where do I start? OK, from the beginning.

Than goes a long period of Ottoman rule, and than again:

 

[deo]

Hmmm...let me see....where do I start? OK, from the beginning.

So, by this logic, all those cities are also ottoman, roman, byzantine etc.

 

[Archduke Otto]

I guess that is exactely the point.

But anyways, I don't mind whom they belonged over time. If I play a civ, I want as big an empire as possible. If I'm Albania, I want Prishtina. If I'm the Grand Turk, I want it. If I'm Serbia I want it, if I'm...

 

[Aranor]

I guess that is exactely the point.

But anyways, I don't mind whom they belonged over time. If I play a civ, I want as big an empire as possible. If I'm Albania, I want Prishtina. If I'm the Grand Turk, I want it. If I'm Serbia I want it, if I'm...

lol exactly!!!! who cares where the cities lie now in the real world! The entire point of this mod is to dipict the Albanian peoples, and in this the cities and towns in which they inhabit. It doesnt matter if the towns are Serbian, Macedonian or whatever! Shqype has based this from information that he has gathered about the middle ages when the albanians were ruled by the Ottomans.

Velja, if you dont like the work that Shqype has done go play your serbian civ and leave it be, all that you are doing here is stirring up trouble where its not needed nor wanted!

 

[Shqype]

Thanks Aranor. The thing is, I only included cities that still have a majority Albanian population today. Centuries ago, Nish had a large Albanian population, but they were either a) deported, b) migrated on their own initiative, or c) assimilated.

[You cannot deny assimilation. It is a fact! Why else would the Slavic government slavicise the names of Albanians? My father was born in the former Yugoslavia with his name Nikë, or Nika. They changed it to Nikola. I have cousins with Albanian last names that had them forcibly slavicized: Ivezaj => Ivezic, Elezaj => Elezovic, Makaj => Makovic, etc, etc.]

Ulqini for example, not only was it founded by Illyrians and inhabited by Albanians throughout the ages, but today it is 95% Albanian. It is an extremely profitable coastal town: it is a hot vacation spot for Albanians from all around the world, especially Kosova, which go there for vacation. Do you know what the Montenegrin government does with that money? They use it to beautify the towns of the north where Serbs and Montenegrins live, instead of using it on the areas that generated that income. Why? Because it is majority Albanian!

In fact, my family has land in Ulqin. We own a hotel by the beach. We visit yearly. And let me tell you, the only place we encounter Slavs is in Podgorica when we fly in!


Velja, those maps indicate the land under a Serbian empire as opposed to demographics. Look at maps of the land before Serbs existed Look at maps of the land after Stefan Dushan's 9 year Balkanic empire crumbled Look at the land under Gjergj Kastrioti's rebellion Look at maps of the land based on population today

 

[Velja]

lol exactly!!!! who cares where the cities lie now in the real world! The entire point of this mod is to dipict the Albanian peoples, and in this the cities and towns in which they inhabit. It doesnt matter if the towns are Serbian, Macedonian or whatever! Shqype has based this from information that he has gathered about the middle ages when the albanians were ruled by the Ottomans.

Velja, if you dont like the work that Shqype has done go play your serbian civ and leave it be, all that you are doing here is stirring up trouble where its not needed nor wanted!

You are from Australia, you people dont understand this kind of problem.

One more interesting thing is that Shqype was insulted that I included Pristina, Prizren and other Kosovo cities in Serbian city-list. It's interesting because Kosovo was within Serbian borders for centuries(to the very present day), NEVER within Albanian borders*. Dont you find it a little bit irrational? I wouldnt mind if it was in Turkish city list as well - they held it for 5 centuries.


One of Shqype's funny comments in my thread:

-A suggestion to make your civ more accurate and less controversial, thus more widely accepted by all:
Only include the cities of old Serbia , before their territorial acquisitions (ie. 1878) and without the province of Kosova.

See what I mean? Shqype is restraining my right to put cities that have been within Serbian borders for centuries before Ottoman rule, and ever since after Ottoman rule in the Balkans.



* - Oops, my mistake - it was between 1941-45 within Abanian nazi borders.

 

[Velja]

Thanks Aranor. The thing is, I only included cities that still have a majority Albanian population today. Centuries ago, Nish had a large Albanian population, but they were either a) deported, b) migrated on their own initiative, or c) assimilated.

[You cannot deny assimilation. It is a fact! Why else would the Slavic government slavicise the names of Albanians? My father was born in the former Yugoslavia with his name Nikë, or Nika. They changed it to Nikola. I have cousins with Albanian last names that had them forcibly slavicized: Ivezaj => Ivezic, Elezaj => Elezovic, Makaj => Makovic, etc, etc.]

Ulqini for example, not only was it founded by Illyrians and inhabited by Albanians throughout the ages, but today it is 95% Albanian. It is an extremely profitable coastal town: it is a hot vacation spot for Albanians from all around the world, especially Kosova, which go there for vacation. Do you know what the Montenegrin government does with that money? They use it to beautify the towns of the north where Serbs and Montenegrins live, instead of using it on the areas that generated that income. Why? Because it is majority Albanian!

In fact, my family has land in Ulqin. We own a hotel by the beach. We visit yearly. And let me tell you, the only place we encounter Slavs is in Podgorica when we fly in!


Velja, those maps indicate the land under a Serbian empire as opposed to demographics. Look at maps of the land before Serbs existed Look at maps of the land after Stefan Dushan's 9 year Balkanic empire crumbled Look at the land under Gjergj Kastrioti's rebellion Look at maps of the land based on population today

1. In Ulcinj, it's not 95%, but 78%.
2. Ulcinj may have been founded by Illirians, not by Albanians.
3. There is a map from 1389.
4. Please, you show me a map of Kastrioti's lands... Was he a king? A duke? Did he have Kingdom or just that castle he defended?
5. Most important. You still havent answered any of my questions:

They were, but you are ignorant. Us Albanians believe that if you don't know, it's better not to talk at all

When? Accurate year!

Not only do these cities have about a 95% Albanian population today, but they were settled and founded by my people's ancestors as well.

So, what percentage does it take to claim a city to be Albanian?

Since when ethnic borders became actual borders?

 

[Aranor]

You are from Australia, you people dont understand this kind of problem.

Shows what you know of Australia

 

[Velja]

Shows what you know of Australia

From all my post assigned to you, you find that most interesting?

 

[Shqype]

The Illyrians that were not assimilated by the Slavs came to be known as the Albanians. The same people, living in the same area, with the same language, culture, and customs, were called by a different name by the Greeks since 1081 AD.

A timeline:

Before AD 1

1225 BC Earliest known Illyrian King, Hylli (Hyllus), dies.

358 BC Illyrians defeated by Philip II of Macedonia.

312 BC King Glaucius of Illyria expels Greeks from Durrës.

229 BC and 219 BC Roman soldiers overrun Illyrian settlements in Neretva River valley.

165 BC Roman forces capture Illyria's King Gentius at Shkodër.

AD 1-AD 1400

1st century AD Christianity comes to Illyrian populated areas.

AD 9 Romans, under Emperor Tiberius, subjugate Illyrians and divide present-day Albania between Dalmatia, Epirus, and Macedonia.

AD 395 Roman Empire's division into eastern and western parts leaves the lands that now comprise Albania administratively under the Eastern Empire but ecclesiastically under Rome.

4th century - seventh century Goths, Huns, Avars, Serbs, Croats, and Bulgars successively invade Illyrian lands in present-day Albania.

732 Illyrian people subordinated to the patriarchate of Constantinople by the Byzantine emperor, Leo the Isaurian.

1054 Christianity divides into Catholic and Orthodox churches, leaving Christians in southern Albania under ecumenical patriarch of Constantinople and those in northern Albania under pope in Rome.

1081 Albania and Albanians mentioned, for the first time in a historical record, by Byzantine emperor.

12th century Serbs occupy parts of northern and eastern Albania.

1204 Venice wins control over most of Albania, but Byzantines regain control of southern portion and establish Despotate of Epirus.

1272 Forces of the King of Naples occupy Durrës and establish an Albanian kingdom.

1385 Albanian ruler of Durrës invites Ottoman forces to intervene against a rival; subsequently, Albanian clans pay tribute and swear fealty to Ottomans.

1389 At Kosovo Polje, Albanians join Serbian-led Balkan army that is crushed by Ottoman forces; coordinated resistance to Ottoman westward progress evaporates.

15th Century

1403 Gjergj Kastrioti born, later becomes Albanian national hero known as Skanderbeg.

1443 After losing a battle near Nis, Skanderbeg defects from Ottoman Empire, reembraces Roman Catholicism, and begins holy war against the Ottomans.

1444 Skanderbeg proclaimed chief of Albanian resistance.

1449 Albanians, under Skanderbeg, rout Ottoman forces under Sultan Murad II.

1468 Skanderbeg dies.

1478 Krujë falls to Ottoman Turks; Shkodër falls a year later. Subsequently, many Albanians flee to southern Italy, Greece, Egypt, and elsewhere; many remaining are forced to convert to Islam.

17th Century

Early 17th century Some Albanians who convert to Islam find careers in Ottoman Empire's government and military service.

17th century - 18th century About two-thirds of Albanians convert to Islam.

18th Century

1785 Kara Mahmud Bushati, chief of Albanian tribe based in Shkodër, attacks Montenegrin territory; subsequently named governor of Shkodër by Ottoman authorities.

19th century

1822 Albanian leader Ali Pasha of Tepelenë assassinated by Ottoman agents for promoting an autonomous state.

1830 1000 Albanian leaders invited to meet with Ottoman general who kills about half of them.

1835 Ottoman Sublime Porte divides Albanian-populated lands into vilayets of Janina and Rumelia with Ottoman administrators.

1861 First school known to use Albanian language in modern times opens in Shkodër.

1877-1878 Russia's defeat of Ottoman Empire seriously weakens Ottoman power over Albanian-populated areas.

1878 Treaty of San Stefano, signed after the Russo-Turkish War, assigned Albanian-populated lands to Bulgaria, Montenegro, and Serbia; but Austria-Hungary and Britain block the treaty's implementation. Albanian leaders meet in Prizren, Kosovo, to form the Prizren League, initially advocating a unified Albania under Ottoman suzerainty. During the Congress of Berlin, the Great Powers overturn the Treaty of San Stefano and divide Albanian lands among several states. The Prizren League begins to organize resistance to the Treaty of Berlin's provisions that affect Albanians.

1879 Society for Printing of Albanian Writings, composed of Roman Catholic, Muslim, and Orthodox Albanians, founded in Constantinople.

1881 Ottoman forces crush Albanian resistance fighters at Prizren. Prizren League's leaders and families arrested and deported.

1897 Ottoman authorities disband a reactivated Prizren League, execute its leader later, then ban Albanian language books.

Twentieth century

1900-1918

1906 Albanians begin joining the Committee of Union and Progress (Young Turks), which formed in Constantinople, hoping to gain autonomy for their nation within the Ottoman Empire.

1908 Albanian intellectuals meet in Bitola and choose the Latin alphabet as standard script rather than Arabic or Cyrillic.

1912 May
Albanians rise against the Ottoman authorities and seize Skopje.

October
First Balkan War begins, and Albanian leaders affirm Albania as an independent state.

November
Muslim and Christian delegates at Vlorë declare Albania independent and establish a provisional government.

December
Ambassadorial conference opens in London and discusses Albania's fate. Half of Albanian territories are given to neighboring states, Yugoslavia and Greece.

1913 May
Treaty of London ends First Balkan War. Second Balkan War begins.

August
Treaty of Bucharest ends Second Balkan War. Great Powers recognize an independent Albanian state ruled by a constitutional monarchy.

1914 March
Prince Wilhelm, German army captain, installed as head of the new Albanian state by the International Control Commission, arrives in Albania.

September
New Albanian state collapses following outbreak of World War I; Prince Wilhelm is stripped of authority and departs from Albania.

1918 November
World War I ends, with Italian army occupying most of Albania and Serbian, Greek and French force occupying remainder. Italian and Yugoslav powers begin struggle for dominance over Albanians.

December
Albanian leaders meet at Durrës to discuss presentation of Albania's interests at the Paris Peace Conference.

1919-1938

1919 January
Serbs attack Albania's inhabited cities. Albanians adopt guerrilla warfare.

June
Albania denied official representation at the Paris Peace Conference; British, French, and Greek negotiators later decide to divide Albania among Greece, Italy, and Yugoslavia.

1920 January
Albanian leaders meeting at Lushnjë reject the partitioning of Albania by the Treaty of Paris, warn that Albanians will take up arms in defense of their territory, and create a bicameral parliament.

February
Albanian government moves to Tiranë, which becomes the capital.

September
Albania forces Italy to withdraw its troops and abandon territorial claims to almost all Albanian territory.

December
Albania admitted to League of Nations as sovereign and independent state.

1921 November
Yugoslav troops invade Albanian territories they had not previously occupied; League of Nations commission forces Yugoslav withdrawal and reaffirms Albania's 1913 borders.

PS - About "Albanian Nazis." No such thing. Hitler united Kosova with Albania because he knew Kosova was Albanian land, and that the Albanians were the descendants of the Illyrians. He looked at them as Aryans, and thus unified their land. Yugoslavia recieved it back because the anti-Albanian communist leader "sold" it to them.