Anonymous goes on a rampage in response to Megaupload being shutdown

[Commodore]

What I want to know is why people are so much more freaked out that the government could abuse the ability to shut down internet sites then they are that the government could abuse it's new ability to put you in jail indefinitely just because.

Oh I'm freaked out about that too, but that's not the topic of this thread so I don't bring it up.

 

[BasketCase]

Do you actually see how absurd your arguments are?

Of course not. Seriously--don't go there.

Then how can you know with absolute certainty that this will not be abused?

The U.S. government already has the power to destroy Free Speech utterly and completely. Had that for a long time. Has the world's most powerful military backing it up, too (had that for a long time as well). But it doesn't use it.

SOPA won't add anything at all to the U.S. government's power. SOPA is a redundancy. In fact SOPA would actually be a bit of a roadblock. So there's no reason to even bother worrying about SOPA.

How, on the other hand, do you know with any degree of certainty that SOPA would be abused? You don't. In Iran? Certainly. In the U.S.? Nope.

 

[W|M]

How, on the other hand, do you know with any degree of certainty that SOPA would be abused? You don't. In Iran? Certainly. In the U.S.? Nope.

There is corruption in every part of the world, including the US.

 

[Commodore]

Of course not. Seriously--don't go there.


The U.S. government already has the power to destroy Free Speech utterly and completely. Had that for a long time. Has the world's most powerful military backing it up, too (had that for a long time as well). But it doesn't use it.

SOPA won't add anything at all to the U.S. government's power. SOPA is a redundancy. In fact SOPA would actually be a bit of a roadblock. So there's no reason to even bother worrying about SOPA.

How, on the other hand, do you know with any degree of certainty that SOPA would be abused? You don't. In Iran? Certainly. In the U.S.? Nope.

So if SOPA doesn't add anything and it's just a redundancy, then why do we even need it? According to what you just said, it's just another piece of useless legislation that has no business being passed. And if that's the case, why do people like you defend it so vigorously?

As for your question: I don't know if it will be abused or not, but I'd rather not take the chance. In matters such as these it is always better to err on the side of freedom, and freedom in this case means killing SOPA. No matter how benevolent the government has been in the past, it is always best to ensure they have as few avenues as possible to potentially abuse the people. Not to mention, in this particular issue, this is not something the government can simply legislate away. The internet community has already shown that it is willing to do whatever it takes to defend their piracy networks.

 

[keli]

No, no BasketCase. The problem with SOPA is not whether the US government abuses it or not, the problem is that big companies abuse it. Practically these companies could force to close most of the websites, thus they would have control over the Internet.

 

[BasketCase]

So if SOPA doesn't add anything and it's just a redundancy, then why do we even need it?

I never said we did need it (I never said that we don't, either).

According to what you just said, it's just another piece of useless legislation that has no business being passed. And if that's the case, why do people like you defend it so vigorously?

I never said "it has no business being passed", and I never defended it either, vigorously or in any other way. All I did was demand that we refer to a spade by the very convenient and simple word "spade".

Keep something in mind: I've never stated once (in this thread or anywhere else) what my position on SOPA actually is. I never said I favor its passage, nor did I ever say that I oppose it. All I said was that we shouldn't be worried about it. SOPA was aimed at copyright violators outside the United States. SOPA was intended to enforce existing laws, and for some strange reason I don't see any mobs of protestors demanding that we repeal current copyright laws......

As for your question: I don't know if it will be abused or not, but I'd rather not take the chance. In matters such as these it is always better to err on the side of freedom, and freedom in this case means killing SOPA.

Nope. Redundancy. The government knocked down Megaupload without using SOPA. Killing SOPA makes no difference to your freedom.

And, truth be told, it's not government that's a threat to freedom of speech these days. Attempts have been made recently to infringe my freedom of speech--but those attempts weren't made by the U.S. government. The threat comes from much closer to home.....

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

Nope. Redundancy. The government knocked down Megaupload without using SOPA. Killing SOPA makes no difference to your freedom.

Killing SOPA makes it harder for greedy people to kill your freedom. They still can but it is harder and takes longer so they may not bother or it would fail.

 

[BasketCase]

Nope. Neither the government, nor corporations, nor the police have ever caused any problems with my civil rights. The current threats to my freedoms come from places completely irrelevant to SOPA. Specifically, from people living within five miles of me in the real world. Hell, a couple such threats are (well, were) right here in CFC.....

George Orwell's warnings about totalitarian regimes (such as his book 1984) don't apply only to governments. They're applicable for anybody who wants to control the thoughts of others. Peer pressure. The group mentality. Doublethink. The desire to conform. Control of facts. Presenting an Emmanuel Goldstein for people to hate on.

I have had people try to violate my freedoms to think and speak without fear. They have never been government officials. They have been neighbors, co-workers, the guy at the grocery store who mentions out of the blue that he's pro-life. Fear of causing a public scene has led me to keep my mouth shut more than once.

As I said--the threat today actually comes from much closer to home......

 

[CaptainF]

Nope. Neither the government, nor corporations, nor the police have ever caused any problems with my civil rights. The current threats to my freedoms come from places completely irrelevant to SOPA. Specifically, from people living within five miles of me in the real world. Hell, a couple such threats are (well, were) right here in CFC.....

George Orwell's warnings about totalitarian regimes (such as his book 1984) don't apply only to governments. They're applicable for anybody who wants to control the thoughts of others. Peer pressure. The group mentality. Doublethink. The desire to conform. Control of facts. Presenting an Emmanuel Goldstein for people to hate on.

I have had people try to violate my freedoms to think and speak without fear. They have never been government officials. They have been neighbors, co-workers, the guy at the grocery store who mentions out of the blue that he's pro-life. Fear of causing a public scene has led me to keep my mouth shut more than once.

As I said--the threat today actually comes from much closer to home......

So, fear of causing a public scene = autocratic government oppression?

tl;dr: you've gone off the deep end.

 

[BasketCase]

Straw man. Fear of causing a public scene = oppression by the civilian standing next to you.

Government is not the problem. People are.

 

[Behind The Mask]

Government is not the problem. People are.

But if the Government is made up of people then doesn't that mean by default the Government is the problem?

It's a vicious cycle!

 

[Commodore]

Straw man. Fear of causing a public scene = oppression by the civilian standing next to you.

Government is not the problem. People are.

No you oppress yourself. If you keep your mouth shut because YOU don't want to create a scene, that's not the fault of the person standing next to you. You made the choice not to speak, therefore the only oppression you experienced came from within your own mind.

Fear of causing a scene = you not having the courage to speak your mind.

 

[wolfigor]

Related note: SOPA did include a section that stated the following: a copyright holder must first inform a web site that said site is infringing a copyright--and if the site voluntarily removes the material in question, the site is immune from prosecution. Seems like a good idea to me. Sadly, when I pointed this out at a real-life gathering, I turned out to be the only guy in the entire room who even knew that was in SOPA, and I realized nobody else in the room knew what was actually in it. They'd all just jumped on the anti-SOPA bandwagon.

The main issue with the line you quote is that the burden of proof is on the receiving end and not on alleged copyright owner.
For example copyright material could be used legally by third parties (e.g. Fair Use), however SOPA does not require the copyright owner to proof that there is effectively a copyright violation.

SOPA allows anybody allegedly owning copyright on some material to ask a service owner to remove such material without having first to prove that there is a copyright violation.
Whoever posted or uploaded such material will have effectively to prove his own innocence: guilty until proven innocent.

Clearly an average person will not fight legally for their files due to the absurdly high cost of such defense.

It would be much better if the copyright owner would have the burden of proving copyright infringement (e.g. proving that the material is actually really covered by their copyright, that fair use does not apply, that the files are not for personal use, etc.)

 

[cardgame]

Nope. Neither the government, nor corporations, nor the police have ever caused any problems with my civil rights.

[bolding mine]

So you have no problem with the Chinese oppression of Tibet?

Clearly it's not causing you any problems.

African genocide is no skin off your nose, so I suppose you don't care about that either.

 

[GhostWriter16]

But if the Government is made up of people then doesn't that mean by default the Government is the problem?

It's a vicious cycle!

Government is not the solution to the problem. Government is the problem.

From my favorite President in... a long time.

 

[CaptainF]

Government is not the solution to the problem. Government is the problem.

From my favorite President in... a long time.

Also the same president that raised taxes numerous times, and ramped up the war on drugs!

Yeah, Raygun sure hated government alright, except when he was in charge.

 

[Oruc]

Way to give them more reasons to make laws like SOPA, Anon. It's like shooting a post office because of Gun Control laws.

Anyone can take up the mask of anonymous it could easily be a false flag.

 

[Skwink]

Anyone can take up the mask of anonymous it could easily be a false flag.

There is no "flag" of anonymous. Everyone who claims to be Anonymous is Anonymous.