Another abortion article...

[Keirador]

Ohh. . .
well thanks! and sorry for being stupid that last time.
(Why aren't you watching Family Guy? It's new! And hilarious! Or do you, like me, have a TV and computer in the same room? "Coming up next: a pig who refuses to eat Jews? After this." Was that right? How can they say that!?)

 

[blackheart]

As Keirador said, there is no real reason, scientific or religious, moral or ethical to think that human life and all it's sacredness does not begin at conception. What your view is is irrelavent, because a 'fetus' is no less a human being because it is in it's first trimester instead of it's third. It doesn't magically become a human being with rights when it's born. (Or, as one pro-abortion guy said, "when you bring it home from the hospital")

Let us digress a moment here. There are real reasons, scientific and religious, you just don't view it the same as I do. Scientifically, it would be the same as if you took antiobiotics that inevitably kills some of your own cells as well as bacteria. Is that partial murder? How about amputating your arm and such?

Religiously, for me it depends on when the soul becomes the baby. That point is debateable, but for me it doesn't happen right away. Aborting 6 months into the pregnancy may be considered murder, aborting a few weeks or a month in is touchy. There is no arbitary rule of thumb for this, but then again there isn't for anything else that exists.

Is this, then, a solution to poverty? Are poor people better off dead?

Depends on the person?

 

[Keirador]

Let us digress a moment here. There are real reasons, scientific and religious, you just don't view it the same as I do. Scientifically, it would be the same as if you took antiobiotics that inevitably kills some of your own cells as well as bacteria. Is that partial murder? How about amputating your arm and such?

Don't pretend you have a valid argument with that. Destroying some of the cells that make up an entire organism is not murder if it does not cause the death of the entire organism. Abortion does kill the entire organism. There is no comparison.

 

[feline_dacat]

As to this whole paragraph: I think this is going on the terrible logic that it is better to be dead than to live and suffer. I've heard people argue that fetuses should be killed because if they weren't they would grow up poor. Is this, then, a solution to poverty? Are poor people better off dead?

Well, I didn't say what my view was on this situation in that post - but incidentally, I think I would have an abortion in this case, whether or not adoption was an option. I would be a very foolish girl for having got myself pregnant and my punishment is to have a death hanging over my head.
And yes - it would be a very very extreme and unfeeling solution to poverty. Not one i'd implement, but yes, strictly speaking it would be a solution. I've never been that poor (thankfully) and i certainly wouldn't put all poor people to death... but who's to say I won't feel that I'd rather be dead if i was so poor i could die a slow death?

 

[Keirador]

Well, I didn't say what my view was on this situation in that post - but incidentally, I think I would have an abortion in this case, whether or not adoption was an option. I would be a very foolish girl for having got myself pregnant and my punishment is to have a death hanging over my head.
And yes - it would be a very very extreme and unfeeling solution to poverty. Not one i'd implement, but yes, strictly speaking it would be a solution. I've never been that poor (thankfully) and i certainly wouldn't put all poor people to death... but who's to say I won't feel that I'd rather be dead if i was so poor i could die a slow death?

There's one big thing you're overlooking here: it's not just your life. Especially the bolded part. Feeling bad is your punishment? What did the baby do to deserve capital punishment? No, your punishment for being such a foolish girl is that you have to carry the baby to term and give birth. It's also not up to you to decide that the baby is better off dead, just as it's not up to me that YOU are better off dead.

 

[blackheart]

Don't pretend you have a valid argument with that. Destroying some of the cells that make up an entire organism is not murder if it does not cause the death of the entire organism. Abortion does kill the entire organism. There is no comparison.

One absurd argument to counter another. Continuing has no point, we are set in our beliefs, and if our core beliefs are opposite there cannot be a seeing on the same level.

 

[feline_dacat]

Don't pretend you have a valid argument with that. Destroying some of the cells that make up an entire organism is not murder if it does not cause the death of the entire organism. Abortion does kill the entire organism. There is no comparison.

At what point does the bunch of cells start being an organism, and not just a growth in the mother? I think its the point at which the baby can survive without the mother, with the aid of medical science. When that is or whether a baby can grow completely separately from the mother, i don't know. I'd have to ask a medic about that... I'm pretty sure its not possible yet to have a proper test tube baby.

 

[Keirador]

One absurd argument to counter another. Continuing has no point, we are set in our beliefs, and if our core beliefs are opposite there cannot be a seeing on the same level.

No, explain to me how my belief is absurd. Killing a portion of cells without endangering the entire organism is not the same as killing an entire organism. I'll be polite and temperate, I promise. Just explain why that's an absurd belief.

 

[Keirador]

At what point does the bunch of cells start being an organism, and not just a growth in the mother? I think its the point at which the baby can survive without the mother, with the aid of medical science. When that is or whether a baby can grow completely separately from the mother, i don't know. I'd have to ask a medic about that... I'm pretty sure its not possible yet to have a proper test tube baby.

That bunch of cells is always an organism, that first single cell is an organism. This is not a religious belief, it is biological classification. At no point is a developing embryo considered a growth or tumor. It is a separate organism, regardless of whether it can survive or not, at the moment of conception when an egg is fertilized, creating a cell that is distinct from that of the mother or the father.

 

[feline_dacat]

There's one big thing you're overlooking here: it's not just your life. Especially the bolded part. Feeling bad is your punishment? What did the baby do to deserve capital punishment? No, your punishment for being such a foolish girl is that you have to carry the baby to term and give birth. It's also not up to you to decide that the baby is better off dead, just as it's not up to me that YOU are better off dead.

Well okay, fair enough that a fairer punishment would be to carry the baby full term. However, legally it would still be my decision (given that we're sticking to the laws and what the doctors say) and if i choose to have an abortion its purely that - my choice. The law also says that its my choice up to a certain time during the pregnancy.
Taking my definition of when a baby is a baby - I think up til the point when it starts being a baby, a mother should be free to chose whether or not to carry on with the pregnancy.

 

[Alpine Trooper]

I won't bother reading the other posts in this thread.

If you are against abortion, you sicken me to no end. It is womans individual choice. If someone thinks for one second that a female does not walk out of that hospital psychological affected and only to repeat the same "murder" again... Well, that person absolutely repulses me. For their gross generalization of an alarmingly small statistic to promoting their selfish and sick excuse for morals, they have no respect from me.

The vast majority of abortions are completely understandable. Those who abort for rape, being too young that it could kill them, or because it was a genuine adult made accident, do not deserve your further psychological damage and hate - The world has enough of that.

 

[Keirador]

If you are against abortion, you sicken me to no end. It is womans individual choice.

The baby has no rights? Or is it OK for me to kill retards, because they can't understand what's going on anyway?

 

[Keirador]

Well okay, fair enough that a fairer punishment would be to carry the baby full term. However, legally it would still be my decision (given that we're sticking to the laws and what the doctors say) and if i choose to have an abortion its purely that - my choice. The law also says that its my choice up to a certain time during the pregnancy.
Taking my definition of when a baby is a baby - I think up til the point when it starts being a baby, a mother should be free to chose whether or not to carry on with the pregnancy.

So it's OK because the law says it's OK?
So you would have supported slavery in the 18th century?

 

[feline_dacat]

That bunch of cells is always an organism, that first single cell is an organism. This is not a religious belief, it is biological classification. At no point is a developing embryo considered a growth or tumor. It is a separate organism, regardless of whether it can survive or not, at the moment of conception when an egg is fertilized, creating a cell that is distinct from that of the mother or the father.

Thanks for the definition! I didn't know that
I still define a mother and embryo/foetus not to be mother and baby until they can be separated.

 

[Alpine Trooper]

The baby has no rights? Or is it OK for me to kill retards, because they can't understand what's going on anyway?

I pray for your sake that you only play the devils advocate. If thats not the case, I am glad your location is far removed from the civilized world. But since that's unlikely, you should first aquire rational thought and quit believing that "retards" and fetuses are one alike.

 

[feline_dacat]

So it's OK because the law says it's OK?
So you would have supported slavery in the 18th century?

Yes, abortion is okay if the law says its okay.
I wouldn't know whether I'd support slavery in the 18th century, what with not being in the 18th century and all... - I can't really say unless I was actually part of society back then.

 

[Keirador]

I pray for your sake that you only play the devils advocate. If thats not the case, I am glad your location is far removed from the civilized world. But since that's unlikely, you should first aquire rational thought and quit believing that "retards" and fetuses are one alike.

Nice hearing your rational arguments. You're not helping your cause very much.

 

[Keirador]

Yes, abortion is okay if the law says its okay.
I wouldn't know whether I'd support slavery in the 18th century, what with not being in the 18th century and all... - I can't really say unless I was actually part of society back then.

You don't think the law can ever be wrong?

 

[cgannon64]

Ohh. . .
well thanks! and sorry for being stupid that last time.
(Why aren't you watching Family Guy? It's new! And hilarious! Or do you, like me, have a TV and computer in the same room? "Coming up next: a pig who refuses to eat Jews? After this." Was that right? How can they say that!?)

I left to watch. I was about to lament the death of Family Guy with the fart contest, but then they ripped out into an awesome keyboard battle. Probably the most I've laughed at that show since...it'll take me a while to think of the last joke they had that made me laugh that hard.

------

By the way I think an interesting fact that seems to be not-well-known is that the standard method of birth control, "the pill", is actually pretty much an abortion pill. It doesn't prevent pregnancy, but rather it kills the embryos a few days after they are conceived; by starvation, I think.

Depends on the person?

Depends on the person's will and wishes, I assume you mean? Why, let's ask the fetuses: Unborn children, would you rather be dead or poor?

To support abortion for poor fetuses because being poor is "suffering", to me, would be tantamount to supporting pre-emptive class warfare against the poor. We might as well sterilize them all - we can't have any more suffering, now can we?

 

[Elrohir]

Let us digress a moment here. There are real reasons, scientific and religious, you just don't view it the same as I do. Scientifically, it would be the same as if you took antiobiotics that inevitably kills some of your own cells as well as bacteria. Is that partial murder? How about amputating your arm and such?

Oh come on. If I have my arm amputated or get a flu shot it will hurt and cause my body harm - but I'll most likely still live. (Assuming my arm wasn't amputated by a nut with a machete and that flu shot wasn't full of the plague) But when you kill a baby still being formed you may kill the same amount of actual human cells as when I got a flu shot - but in this case you have not done a little bit of damage for the greater good of a human being, you've completely destroyed a human being.

Religiously, for me it depends on when the soul becomes the baby. That point is debateable, but for me it doesn't happen right away. Aborting 6 months into the pregnancy may be considered murder, aborting a few weeks or a month in is touchy. There is no arbitary rule of thumb for this, but then again there isn't for anything else that exists.

Exactly. We don't really know, and barring God shouting it down for us, we'll never know exactly when this side of heaven. So isn't it better to err on the side of caution and take the scientific route and keep human life sacred from the moment of conception?

If you are against abortion, you sicken me to no end. It is womans individual choice. If someone thinks for one second that a female does not walk out of that hospital psychological affected and only to repeat the same "murder" again... Well, that person absolutely repulses me. For their gross generalization of an alarmingly small statistic to promoting their selfish and sick excuse for morals, they have no respect from me.

Yes, and by the cops trying to interfere with the bank robber shooting the teller, they are interfering with his right to how to live his life! Bad policemen!

Individual choice is an argument for being able to do whatever you want when you are the only person involved. But when another human being enters the equation what you can and cannot do is limited. That's a fact of life.

The vast majority of abortions are completely understandable. Those who abort for rape, being too young that it could kill them, or because it was a genuine adult made accident, do not deserve your further psychological damage and hate - The world has enough of that.

I think you need to check your facts

Only about 1% of abortions are because of rape or incest.

And who said I hate the women who get abortions? I think a good many of them truly don't know what they are getting into. It's the doctors that I really despise. Once abortion is illegalized, any doctor found guilty of performing an abortion should get the death penalty.