another one of those "wow i suck" posts

[Soverntear]

Hey Everyone,

Thanks for looking, as the title states im stinking it up in this game. pre noble as per normal i dominate. noble and higher everything just falls apart. I've read many of the guides on this site. which have improved my overall gameplay, but in general im still stuck with not enough room to expand/ terrible war efforts.

I play on continents, temperate, medium sea, ancient, normal speed. I have been favoring Bismark for the last while. but from what ive been reading industrious is pretty useless post monarch.

so allow me to give you my start to my decline. turn one: settle in first square, send scout to find my second town spot. start production on a warrior, worker, warrior, settler, worker. techs i always go for the nearest resource to my capital then try to get bronze working, agriculture, the wheel and pottery.

so around the time of the third city site. im normally coming in the second last positions on points (i know points dont mean much) by the time i feel im ready to rush (normally around 2nd or third city which wil get me horses) i get a decent stack (lets say 5 chariots) i go to make my rush on my nearest neighbor and BAM dead stack of chariots.

so from there i try to claim what land is left and normally end up just getting stomped along the way. im having trouble in wars, i go to attack and city even when i have cats, my stack just get beat even when they are advanced units.

I have been trying to specialize my citys but honestly i always find the newbie mistake of build everything in every city to be much more effective. i always end upo winning more games with non specialized citys. could this be due to poor city placement? poor specialization? bad luck?

also on the topic of specialization at what population point should ii start trying to use specialists? to you what makes a good city for each type? i follow this production city, must have 4 hills, access to a river. commerce, rivers and some decent food resoures. science same as commerce but with a bit more hills. GP farm rivers more rivers and did i forget to mention rivers?

now slavery/ chopping. this makes no sence how its useful to kill off population, ive tried using it (normally when it takes 1-2 pop to finish it) and i find my unhappiness makes it so the city starves and leaves me with a pile of crap city. yes i do have a grainery by the time or im whipping to get a grainery.

my research is always path based staying away from religious endeavors in favor of military or worker improvements. i nromally try to rush optics to get the sea based +1 move. ultimently im really confused and wouldnt mind some help. thanks again guys and gals


Saves for 4000bc 1ad and 1000ad
http://rapidshare.com/files/281971438/Saves.rar.html


second try:
http://rapidshare.com/files/282010616/Evan_AD-0001__trial.CivBeyondSwordSave.html

 

[kochman]

Let's start at the beginning here...
Worker>Worker>Settler is usually how I go... while making sure to get BW right away... chop your way to the 2nd worker, then they both chop you to your first settler...

Found a new city, and repeat.

After that, it tends to vary a bit by map, but I usually opt for the great wall, so I don't have to worry about building units when I can be building settlers and workers... to rex all over the place.

Do that until your borders start colliding in a couple of points with someone, then build your armies to crush the opponent.




The key here though is those first few turns... they are critical... you need to found your send city ASAP!!! Remember, growth can be exponential in this early game for some time... don't stiffle it.

 

[Amao]

upload a start save, and some later save where you failed. and get advices and replay.

 

[Soverntear]

questions on uploading, what turn would be a decent time to upload? i dont have any later saves seeing as i normally keep only one file. also im guessing ill have to upload the save to rapidshare or the like?


just reread the post about saves, so post two saves from the same game. one lets say 10 turns in and another after im getting owned?

 

[UWHabs]

I'll start with the standard "post pics and people can help more". A few basic suggestions:

1. learn the power of slavery. Look up in the strategy articles, there's lots of help. I never used to use it, but learned how, and now I say in civ, slavery is the greatest thing to happen to mankind. Cities growing too fast, you can whip off 2-3 pop to build a settler or courthouse or whatever. It can make your cities happier, temporarily

2. Specialization: Food is the key.
GP farm you want lots of big food tiles. Rivers are only useful for irrigating corn or wheat. Ideal GP farm has like corn, pigs, and fish. Then you can work those 3 tiles and have like 7 specialists. Production you want food and hills. If not, food is good (you can always workshop to get production, or just use slavery).

3. Try different leaders. Lets you learn more about the game

4. A "rush" is not building 5 chariots after you've built 3 cities. To chariot rush, even getting a 2nd city is almost too late. Chariots are a very weak unit, so to rush with them, you need to have them early. Also, as much fun as it is to rush, you don't need it most games. If nobody is close, don't rush. If you have space to expand peacefully, don't rush. Also, be very careful trying to rush creative or protective civs. May not seem like much, but early game, a little edge can kill you. If you want to chariot rush, they can't have metals.

 

[Soverntear]

Uwhabs

thanks for the rush tip. i can see what your saying having had the little advantage crush my stacks before.

i always try to do the +food/-food calc to see what type of city im going for and to make sure i dont under build farms. going to check out the slavery guides after i get owned in my necxt game for uploading purposes

 

[michmbk]

On normal speed, 1 AD, 1000 AD are good comparison points. You can get a good comparison of beakers vs. cities at 1 AD, and where you are along the tech tree at 1000 AD.

To address a couple of points in the thread, I wouldn't necessarily suggest a worker/worker/settler start - that can really stunt growth. Worker first is probably the best play in 90% of games, unless you want to warrior rush. On prince or below, you can build 4-5 warriors using your highest hammer tile, rush the nearest capital, and claim a free city. Forgetting the warrior rush, a worker start usually works well - improve food first, then start getting settlers and workers out at size 3, 4 or 5 (depending on the game and civ).

If you want to rush using axes or chariots, usually you'll want to do that with 2 cities and speed, via chopping or whipping. I'd suggest a stack closer to 10 than 5, although, like everything in civ, that number depends.

Whipping can be extremely powerful early - if you have good food, the pop quickly regrows. The key is not to overwhip though - you don't want to pile on unhappiness.

Best approach, as previously said, is to upload a 4000 BC save, and compare your progress at 1 AD and 1000 AD to the inevitable shadowers.

 

[Soverntear]

alright ill keep a save foir 4000bc, 1ad and 1000ad using my current ways. would you guys suggest making a new topic for it or just uploading it to my main post?

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

You can read this whole thread. It's a game Orion played on Noble aiming to help other players beat that difficulty. I think it will help you.

 

[kochman]

On normal speed, 1 AD, 1000 AD are good comparison points. You can get a good comparison of beakers vs. cities at 1 AD, and where you are along the tech tree at 1000 AD.

To address a couple of points in the thread, I wouldn't necessarily suggest a worker/worker/settler start - that can really stunt growth. Worker first is probably the best play in 90% of games, unless you want to warrior rush. On prince or below, you can build 4-5 warriors using your highest hammer tile, rush the nearest capital, and claim a free city. Forgetting the warrior rush, a worker start usually works well - improve food first, then start getting settlers and workers out at size 3, 4 or 5 (depending on the game and civ).

If you want to rush using axes or chariots, usually you'll want to do that with 2 cities and speed, via chopping or whipping. I'd suggest a stack closer to 10 than 5, although, like everything in civ, that number depends.

Whipping can be extremely powerful early - if you have good food, the pop quickly regrows. The key is not to overwhip though - you don't want to pile on unhappiness.

Best approach, as previously said, is to upload a 4000 BC save, and compare your progress at 1 AD and 1000 AD to the inevitable shadowers.

Mathematically speaking, worker>worker>settler is superior to any other configuration for getting your first settler out. If you can rush 5 warriors to the next capital, on a decent size map, before I can pop out multiple settlers, I would be surprised... of course, if you can do that you do gain the advantage of having crushed a future rival for space that is near you... so there is definitely something to be said about that technique... as long as an enemy is close to you. I would say you could probably even do it with 2-3 warriors on the lower levels...

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

questions on uploading, what turn would be a decent time to upload? i dont have any later saves seeing as i normally keep only one file. also im guessing ill have to upload the save to rapidshare or the like?

If you are trying to get advice to get better, turning on AutoSaves (with a save rate of every turn) will allow you to recover any point in your current game you decide was interesting. The auto save folder will be cleaned when you start you next game, so you don't have to worry about it taking over your entire hard drive.


My general recommendation is that you want to show (a) what your starting position/first city actually looked like when you founded it (it's awkward to try to guess where the trees were after you chop them down) and (b) what things look like when you have trained your first settler, which would normally be somewhere in the 2500-2000 range. A picture is generally enough for the first, pictures (which lets people comment without loading the save) and saves (which lets people check the things you forgot to take pictures of) for the latter.

 

[Amao]

If you are trying to get advice to get better, turning on AutoSaves (with a save rate of every turn) will allow you to recover any point in your current game you decide was interesting. The auto save folder will be cleaned when you start you next game, so you don't have to worry about it taking over your entire hard drive.

yes. and i also set the max autosaves to 9999 to make sure all auto saves are kept until i finish my game. after a game, i'll collect them into a named folder. disk space problem? you must have downloaded too much streaming videos, not my problem.

 

[Soverntear]

alright added the saves, only have a 10 download limit from rapidshare so please if DLing add some advice


Edit: saves are in the first post

 

[Soverntear]

incase your wondering, no the workers were not automated the whole game. only in the last 10 turns i turned on automate because i could see nothing worth improving

 

[DMOC]

so allow me to give you my start to my decline. turn one: settle in first square, send scout to find my second town spot. start production on a warrior, worker, warrior, settler, worker. techs i always go for the nearest resource to my capital then try to get bronze working, agriculture, the wheel and pottery.

Here's what I do:

Situation I: If starting out with very little room:

Worker -> Settler (or settler first if imperialistic and able to have 4 total hammers in the initial capital). After a settler, make a warrior.

Situation II: If starting out with room for about 6-7 cities:

Worker -> Warriors until size 3 or 4 depending on how many good tiles there are in the capital. If there's 2 corns and 1 cow, but the rest of the capital is just boring old forests, stopping at size 3 to make a settler is usually good. I will then make a settler at size 3 or 4. After the first settler, if space is tight, make another worker and then a settler (insert warriors if barb defenses needed).

Situation III: If starting out with an incredible amount of land:

Capital to size 5, worker first. Build more warriors than usual for barbarian defense. Then when size 5, create settler - worker - settler - worker - settler - worker and grow the capital (if there's enough happiness room) by building warriors/axes/chariots/archers.

I almost always start with a worker first unless I am cursed with a forest-filled start and a leader that doesn't start with Bronze Working, since the worker would be idle.

*These techniques have proven to be successful for me on deity

To address a couple of points in the thread, I wouldn't necessarily suggest a worker/worker/settler start - that can really stunt growth. Worker first is probably the best play in 90% of games, unless you want to warrior rush. On prince or below, you can build 4-5 warriors using your highest hammer tile, rush the nearest capital, and claim a free city. Forgetting the warrior rush, a worker start usually works well - improve food first, then start getting settlers and workers out at size 3, 4 or 5 (depending on the game and civ).

I agree.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

OK, I looked at 1AD and then at 4000BC.

Said and meant gently: your game in 1AD is a disaster - not unsalvageable at that point, but much much harder than it should be.

Quick notes....

Cities: FOOD. FOOD. FOOOOOOOD. A good rule to hold to, until you no longer think you suck: never found a city without either flood plains or at least one food resource. You've got one city collecting stone and silver and iron, but it can't feed any of those tiles (it could feed all of them if you had settled one step NE so that you could work the Fish). You've another city with gold+gold+copper, and that one is likewise dead because it has no food.

Hamburg was slow to be settled, and I probably would have placed it one tile further east, but it's not a problem.

Your last city, buried in the jungle... it should be OK eventually, but you need to pay a bit more attention to your infrastructure - way way way too early for a library.

Meanwhile, you've got all this great land with cows and fish that you aren't using at all. yikes!

Tech: I like Bronzeworking first on this start if you coupled it with training a worker to begin (warrior is third best choice here, after worker and scout). Fishing next is good. Agriculture should wait (you can't use it yet) - just drive straight to Animal Husbandry. I don't like where you put Horseback Riding, because you neither need it nor can use it at that point in the game. So your teching will need to get better someday, but it's not nearly important as your cities.

FOOD

 

[Soverntear]

VoiceOfUnreason

i wanted a review, lol disaster wasnt quite the word i expected but after reviewing what you said i can see why its that. i will try the one food resource tactic in my next game (starting after i get a couple more reviews) is there anything positive you can say about the file? or is it all basically crap?

also for infrastructure what would you suggest?

 

[michmbk]

Mathematically speaking, worker>worker>settler is superior to any other configuration for getting your first settler out. If you can rush 5 warriors to the next capital, on a decent size map, before I can pop out multiple settlers, I would be surprised... of course, if you can do that you do gain the advantage of having crushed a future rival for space that is near you... so there is definitely something to be said about that technique... as long as an enemy is close to you. I would say you could probably even do it with 2-3 warriors on the lower levels...

Worker/worker/settler may get a second city out fast, mathematically I'm sure you're right, but at what price? Your capital is stuck at size 1 for a long, long time, and I'd bet it's not the best configuration for getting to 6 cities fastest.

On prince and below, warrior rush is a viable approach if you meet anyone in the first 10 turns or so - you're likely to be able to get 4 hammers a turn, and in 20 turns, you've got 5 warriors plus your starter - assuming someone is 12-15 tiles away, you have a second capital in 32-35 turns. Maybe a worker too, plus 100 or so gold.

The start you mention above costs 220 hammers all while at size 1 - 15 turns for the first worker, and even if he's chopping at 20 hammers a pop, and chops 5 forests, it's at least another 15 turns to get those three units out and you've used a bunch of your forests in the capital with no improved tiles. You're getting a faster second city, but stunting both cities growth in the long term.

I'm sure someone smarter than me has done the math on this, but if you start worker, then improve the nearest food resource and grow to size 3, 4 or 5 before another settler and worker (chopping if you want), I'd imagine you'd be about 10 turns or so behind your start, but working more (improved) tiles and probably getting more commerce as well. The capital would be bigger in the latter example, and therefore working more tiles - in my experience always a better approach. With a couple food sources, a size 4 capital can keep spitting out workers and settlers pretty fast, so while your example might get to 2 cities faster, I'm confident the capital growth example gets to 6-7 cities faster.

This totally changes if imperialistic - settler at size 1 can definitely be viable then in certain situations.

 

[michmbk]

Soverntear - I'll do a quick shadow right now of your game to 1 AD to give you something to compare to. I didn't look at your 1 AD save, but you can compare them if you want.

EDIT - Here's a comparison - I quickly played to 25 AD (I was in anarchy at 1 AD, so played 1 more turn). Details in spoiler below.

Spoiler :

Settled in place, worker first. Tech AH first – pig is a great early tile. Then wheel, masonry, fishing, mysticism, BW.

Nearby hut was worth Ag – nice bonus. With stone nearby, figured quick henge, GW and then rex like crazy.

Met Nappy – he’s an obvious warrior rush candidate, but I’ll do this peacefully initially. After the worker, went with a couple warriors, a settler at size 3, a couple work boats.

Second city here for stone:

2 quick wonders after the workboats - total of about 12 turns for both:

From here, I built workers and settlers exclusively in the capital, and claimed as much land as I could. I still didn't build enough workers - only 9 compared to my 11 (soon to be 12) cities at 25 AD. Should have built even more, but I was playing really fast.

I also built this wonder since it's noble and I had stone.

Really no need for it, and in fact, I forgot I built it as I never did switch to representation, which was completely idiotic on my part. Chalk that up to playing too fast and not paying attention. I also love this wonder with a massive rex:

Free pop and health - sign me up. One final wonder, because it was there:

And at 25 AD, here I am:

Note the wonders after henge and GW were all built in secondary cities - the capital built nothing but workers and settlers. I used my trees to chop out those workers, settlers and granaries. With EXP, trees are less important. Cottaged up the two cities just north of the capital, and starting now to get a production site or two up and running and hook up iron. Here were my builds - pretty simple:

Both Nappy and Washington are probably ready to DOW me soon, but so what? I demanded gold from them in 1 AD, so I have 10 turns of peace. About to hook up iron, and here's the important part: I have 11 (soon to be 12) cities. If you check WB, you'll see Nappy has 4 and Washington 6. No chance for them to compete with my production. Tech is as follows:

And where are my beakers coming from? GLH, and a bunch of cities:

Once I hit COL, courthouses will help tech, and I have a couple cities starting horse archers to protect myself. After COL, tech plan would be construction to start building cats and elephants to take control of the landmass.

I took a look at your save to compare - here's what I noticed:

1. The biggest differences is that you don't have enough land - land is power, commerce and production. 5 cities at 1 AD is light. Check out your builds compared to mine:

Because I built so many settlers, I was able to get several wonders, and was able to claim a ton of land without breaking the bank.

2. Another thing I noticed is you waited until after BW and fishing to tech AH. I generally like to get food up and running first - BW can wait until after you go food. AH was the clear first move here for me, although I could live with choosing fishing too.

3. Teching IW and HBR before writing probably doesn't make sense, even on this map. You'll want to prioritize writing more, and you can use alphabet typically to trade for those other techs. Look at my tech path compared to yours and you'll see the difference - by going writing/alphabet, I was able to backfill for a bunch of techs with Gilgamesh.

4. Why so much gold? You should be running at 100% tech to get ahead with almost 300 gold at your disposal.

Your game isn't unwinnable at 1 AD, but I'd strongly suggest at that point getting settlers and workers out to claim/backfill all the land you can. 5 cities isn't going to do it.

 

[§L¥ Gµ¥]

double your chariot figures and cut your city-sites by 1.

The goal of rushing is not to have surviving well-promoted chariots at the end. You're exchanging hammers invested in chariots for good land, settled and not.