Another terrorist attack in London

[Timsup2nothin]

Yeah I read some reports about people throwing their beer glasses and chairs at the terrorists, which is very admirable if true. But we can't really expect untrained civilians to fight back as a norm (though I do believe we will see more and more of it).

Throwing a beer glass is an error. A mug in hand is worth five in the air.

 

[Ryika]

Yes.

In my opinion a rape in progress is a kill or die situation. It doesn't matter to me if the victim is my gf, male, or someone I don't even know. I am very confident about what my response to that situation would be, and calling an operator to ask what I should do isn't it. I am pretty much astonished that it would be anyone's.

Well, then your standards are consistent. Stupid in my opinion, but consistent.

So, yes, if I were the operator I would be hard pressed to take such a caller seriously, especially if they were claiming the victim was someone close to them, like a gf.

I'm glad you're not taking those calls then.

Well, not that it would matter, German police does not operate like that. They have a strict "Assume it's real"-policy that is meant to prevent exactly what has happened here.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Well, then your standards are consistent.

Thanks. I strive for that.

Stupid in my opinion, but consistent.

If you are ever being assaulted and someone like me is around please do not let your opinion obstruct your gratitude.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Well, wouldn't interrogation have as an end to establish whether those three were loners or parts of a cell?

Groans - there were three of them operating together, so they were obviously not loners.

Not seeing why the chance to arrest and examine what this was should be missed

Has it never occurred to you that the police could not know for sure that they were fake sucide belts until after they had shot them?

and then applauded for being missed.

Do the defence lawyers in your country operate for free?

 

[Ryika]

If you are ever being assaulted and someone like me is around please do not let your opinion obstruct your gratitude.

Oh, no question about that. I would most certainly prefer people who can and do intervene to be around.

It's not the fact that you think that people should intervene that is utterly stupid, it's that you assume that anybody can effectively intervene. If a small, untrained guy comes to help his small, untrained girlfriend against a muscular rapist with a weapon, all that will happen is that both of them will get severely hurt, or die.

Not intervening is clearly the right reaction if you have no realistic chance of overwhelming the attacker.

 

[red_elk]

Not intervening is clearly the right reaction if you have no realistic chance of overwhelming the attacker.

There is a term "act according to the situation" (not sure if I correctly translated it to English)
Police officer talking to you by the phone in this case doesn't have enough information to give useful advice.
Should you intervene or not will depend on your (and attacker) physical conditions, whether you received combat training, is there a weapon nearby which you can use, did the attacker see you, etc.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Not intervening is clearly the right reaction if you have no realistic chance of overwhelming the attacker.

I disagree. The "right reaction if you have no realistic chance of overwhelming an attacker" is to prepare. The missing first step in preparation is that the person available to intervene had never taken the time to get their head around circumstances where they would be willing to kill somebody, so they weren't prepared. I won't claim to be prescient, but I have that list pretty well spelled out.

As to "unarmed"...I'm never armed just walking around. There are always weapons of opportunity, and I think everyone should practice not only knowing when they are or aren't willing to act, but recognizing what is at hand moment to moment to make such action possible...or at least more probable in terms of success. I'm sitting at my usual seat at my computer desk in my gf's dining room. There are big effing knives six feet to my right in the kitchen. I can reach them over the counter and don't have to go around into the kitchen, and I know that because I've checked. There's a dog crate next to me, with an empty laptop case on top of it. Under that case are two two pound dumbbells like you would use in an aerobics class. I didn't intentionally hide them from view, but when I dropped the laptop case on top of them I did make a mental note they are there in case I ever feel a need for them, because with a two pound dumbbell in hand even a moderate puncher can kill someone handily. The dining room chairs are too awkward to get out from under the table in a hurry due to limited space. There's a fireplace poker about ten feet to my left. I'd have to go over the back of the couch to get to it from here, but if I were in the living room it might be my first choice. One of the table lamps has the cord running under a recliner that would likely get snagged if I grabbed that lamp, but the other got the plug chewed off by a dog several years ago and the cord is coiled under the lamp so it wouldn't have any chance of snagging. If I wanted to grab and throw that lamp, or shield myself with it I would need two hands, and it wouldn't be an effective club, which I know from considering it while handling that lamp. The recliner could be kicked over from either front or back to create an obstacle, the couch can't. There's a pen in a jar on my desk, and pencils in a holder on the side of the refrigerator...and I've seen first hand how effective a pencil in the neck can be. The candle holders on the mantle could have been designed as weapons and they wouldn't be easier to grab and throw.

Now, admittedly that's a room where I spend a lot of my time. I don't inventory every space I enter that thoroughly. But I can honestly say that I never enter any space without inventorying at all. A pilot friend of mine tells me that he never doesn't know where every strip within gliding distance is, even though he has never experienced an engine failure and the odds are very good that he never will. I figure if he can prepare so can I.

 

[red_elk]

As to "unarmed"...I'm never armed just walking around. There are always weapons of opportunity, and I think everyone should practice not only knowing when they are or aren't willing to act, but recognizing what is at hand moment to moment to make such action possible...or at least more probable in terms of success. I'm sitting at my usual seat at my computer desk in my gf's dining room. There are big f'ing knives six feet to my right in the kitchen. I can reach them over the counter and don't have to go around into the kitchen, and I know that because I've checked. There's a dog crate next to me, with an empty laptop case on top of it. Under that case are two two pound dumbbells like you would use in an aerobics class. I didn't intentionally hide them from view, but when I dropped the laptop case on top of them I did make a mental note they are there in case I ever feel a need for them, because with a two pound dumbbell in hand even a moderate puncher can kill someone handily. The dining room chairs are too awkward to get out from under the table in a hurry due to limited space. There's a fireplace poker about ten feet to my left. I'd have to go over the back of the couch to get to it from here, but if I were in the living room it might be my first choice. One of the table lamps has the cord running under a recliner that would likely get snagged if I grabbed that lamp, but the other got the plug chewed off by a dog several years ago and the cord is coiled under the lamp so it wouldn't have any chance of snagging. If I wanted to grab and throw that lamp, or shield myself with it I would need two hands, and it wouldn't be an effective club, which I know from considering it while handling that lamp. The recliner could be kicked over from either front or back to create an obstacle, the couch can't. There's a pen in a jar on my desk, and pencils in a holder on the side of the refrigerator...and I've seen first hand how effective a pencil in the neck can be. The candle holders on the mantle could have been designed as weapons and they wouldn't be easier to grab and throw.

Impressive I only happen to have a hammer and a big screwdriver in my bedroom. Knife in the kitchen, of course.
Home is usually the safest place from all others, in most cases you will have time to prepare in case if somebody is breaking in.

 

[Kozmos]

Sure Lord Jim.

An obscure western literary reference. How fitting.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Impressive I only happen to have a hammer and a big screwdriver in my bedroom. Knife in the kitchen, of course.
Home is usually the safest place from all others, in most cases you will have time to prepare in case if somebody is breaking in.

My dogs would keep an intruder occupied pretty well, but I would want to respond fast enough to prevent any harm coming to them so I do prepare heavily, but you're right that home is a very unlikely place for any action to be necessary.

 

[Kyriakos]

Groans - there were three of them operating together, so they were obviously not loners.




Has it never occurred to you that the police could not know for sure that they were fake sucide belts until after they had shot them?




Do the defence lawyers in your country operate for free?

1)Oh, there were 3 of them, well that makes them an organization.
2) should they be commended for that?
3) I am sure Britain would default, no need to arrest criminals when you can kill them.

 

[red_elk]

My dogs would keep an intruder occupied pretty well, but I would want to respond fast enough to prevent any harm coming to them so I do prepare heavily, but you're right that home is a very unlikely place for any action to be necessary.

Better to be prepared everywhere, of course.
Armed and decisive people often tend to stop conflicts without actual fighting.

Spoiler :

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Better to be prepared everywhere, of course.
Armed and decisive people often tend to stop conflicts without actual fighting.

Spoiler :

I'm not really that way. If someone does the "pull in front and stop" routine I pretty much figure they have stated that they are up for the game and proceed directly to trying to put them out of my misery without suffering any damage myself. When bat boy went for the trunk I'd have assumed gun and sandwiched him between the two cars.

 

[Borachio]

Cars/knives likely means this is not a very organized attack in the first place, given virtually anyone has access to those. Also not seeing how it is a success to "neutralize" them instead of, you know, arresting and interrogating them? Assuming all they had were car/knive, those can be sort of taken out somewhat easily. Plus it would really help to arrest them and thus know for a fact what they were, instead of the usual charade to follow now.

Yes, I thought this too.

But on the other hand the three men were wearing fake bomb vests.

I presume the police weren't to know they were fake until they'd shot them.

As far as I have heard, it's standard procedure to shoot bomb vest wearers in the head, presumably before they have a chance to detonate themselves.

It's hard to know what else could be done in such a situation.

As for vehicles not being very effective, 84 people in Nice might beg to differ if they weren't already dead.

 

[Borachio]

Police did well with quick reaction, but failed to prevent it.

Strange, why people raised their hands:

Spoiler :

?

How long before we see a suicide bomber with a pair of fake hands on their head?

 

[red_elk]

I'm not really that way. If someone does the "pull in front and stop" routine I pretty much figure they have stated that they are up for the game and proceed directly to trying to put them out of my misery without suffering any damage myself. When bat boy went for the trunk I'd have assumed gun and sandwiched him between the two cars.

It may be sensible, depending on laws and customs in your area. In Russia, the driver would most likely go to jail if he "sandwiched" the bat guy. Also, people here don't carry lethal weapons in most cases. Of course, going to jail is much better than going to morgue, but still the best outcome is the one we saw in the video.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I disagree. The "right reaction if you have no realistic chance of overwhelming an attacker" is to prepare.

Assuming that they didn't though (and frankly, what tiny fraction of a percentage of people would follow the kinds of preparations you describe?), at what point does the time machine factor into your suggested response? Because without one, retroactively preparing isn't really an option, and I'm sure you can admit that "well, you should have prepared" isn't the most helpful thing an emergency operator could say.

 

[Kozmos]

How long before we see a suicide bomber with a pair of fake hands on their head?

About 25 years or so. It took them this long to realize trucks by themselves are dangerous. Terrorism doesn't quite attract the most skilled workforce. I'd argue commercial drones would be the bigger danger given their prototypical use by ISIS in major conflict zones, but they're just another thing that will end up on a watchlist then.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Assuming that they didn't though (and frankly, what tiny fraction of a percentage of people would follow the kinds of preparations you describe?), at what point does the time machine factor into your suggested response? Because without one, retroactively preparing isn't really an option, and I'm sure you can admit that "well, you should have prepared" isn't the most helpful thing an emergency operator could say.

Agreed, which is why you might notice how frequently I manage to get the message "prepare" into conversations. But the reality is that the KEY element of preparation, IMO, is the getting your head around it. Telling yourself over and over and over "I could NEVER be violent," as many people do, is the antithesis of preparing. I don't advocate for "take a martial arts class" or "carry a gun" or any of that. Just get your head in the game, because you never know when you'll be called off the bench.

It may be sensible, depending on laws and customs in your area. In Russia, the driver would most likely go to jail if he "sandwiched" the bat guy. Also, people here don't carry lethal weapons in most cases. Of course, going to jail is much better than going to morgue, but still the best outcome is the one we saw in the video.

Even in a not "stand your ground" state in the US, an obviously road raging guy cuts you off and stops in front of you is clearly a situation not of your own making. "He is going for a weapon" is a perfectly reasonable thing to think when he goes to the trunk. Conditions are pretty cramped, though without being there we can't say that the guy couldn't back up to get away, so that's a question that would have to be dealt with. "There was a car behind me" would eliminate it immediately. "Speeding away backwards? Like some kind of stunt driver? Gosh, it never even crossed my mind" would most likely be sufficient. I'd probably want to see the bat in his hand just to make sure that I wouldn't be confronted with "he was unarmed" and have to defend that it was reasonable for me to think he was, but I think that would be a lock of a case.

I also am not so sure that was the best outcome. As far as I'm concerned, bat boy was in the wrong to begin with, trying to make a left from the wrong lane. He then went road raging even though he was in the wrong. He carries a bat in his trunk, so apparently he thinks ahead for road rage situations without considering that they are his own fault. Personally, crushing him before he hits some undeserving sod with a bat seems like a fairly good outcome to me.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Agreed, which is why you might notice how frequently I manage to get the message "prepare" into conversations. But the reality is that the KEY element of preparation, IMO, is the getting your head around it. Telling yourself over and over and over "I could NEVER be violent," as many people do, is the antithesis of preparing. I don't advocate for "take a martial arts class" or "carry a gun" or any of that. Just get your head in the game, because you never know when you'll be called off the bench.

That's all very well and probably good advice, but it's of zero use after the fact, other than as an example to others I suppose. It's certainly no sort of advice an emergency operator should be trained to give though, as it's not at all useful in the moment.

For the record, I always keep a large glass and a piece of card handy in case I need to catch spiders, so I shouldn't need to have to make any emergency calls when the situation arises. I suppose I could be willing to be more violent with them, but I just don't enjoy cleaning up the mess and picking up severed legs.