Antifa rocks!

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I'm not interested in decorum with a side that actively oppresses me and i shouldn't have to explain that to someone who is an ally, Hygro. I do not have the luxary of allowing any sort of bigotry to fester, take hold and propogate and if that means i must be overzealous and clinical then so be it, because minorities are dying and suffering and that has been the status quo for centuries.

The Democrats suck in ways similar to the Republicans but America is a two party state and those are our options and unless you advocate for radical change, we must work within the system.
 
I have no doubt Rashiminos would have been one of those people attempting to stymy and block segregation
Whoops.

It is through societal shaming and changes in law that these issues have begun to be dealt with.
Social shaming also provokes a closer scrutiny of those issues.

Now he can't come out and say that he would openly oppose them, because society has gotten to a point where that will result in you being ostracised, so he'll just defend the status quo and be reluctant to advance any changes because to be open about it is to give the game away you see, to be open about his cavalier attitude is to invite others to speculate on his true feelings on minorities; that they should put up and shut up about the abuse they recieve from the majority as well as bigots.

We're not proposing mere ostracism in this thread. We're proposing economic isolation and political imprisonment over pepe memes, and normalized violence. That's de facto segregation, by the people who whose antecedents proposed desegregation not that long ago.

I'm cavalier to the extent this story is a repeat and I think I know how the ending plays out. Your challenge is to figure out whether MAGA hats at the lunch counter is merely a cynical emulation of past civil rights movements. If not... well I cannot say your outcomes look as promising as you think they do.
 
I'm not interested in decorum with a side that actively oppresses me and i shouldn't have to explain that to someone who is an ally, Hygro. I do not have the luxary of allowing any sort of bigotry to fester, take hold and propogate and if that means i must be overzealous and clinical then so be it, because minorities are dying and suffering and that has been the status quo for centuries.

The Democrats suck in ways similar to the Republicans but America is a two party state and those are our options and unless you advocate for radical change, we must work within the system.
Yes I know, but that isn't what I wrote.
 
@Hygro It doesn't serve a liar's purposes well, if by an inversion, the person they're attempting to deceive can locate the truth. It's closer to being orthogonally-related. The 'Democrats ' being wrong on the some issue doesn't mean the 'Republicans' are right, and vice versa.

Republicans can gain numbers two ways: buy people (tax cuts), and let Democrats push their own out of the party with their own misbehavior.
Funny, but a good bit true.

No one joins the rightwing because the rightwing has good ideas. The join because they get bought or because there's a lot of mystery on their side, while their own side's loudest members are literally condoning and even finding ways to support violence based on lies. The Iraq War was violence built on lies. Well Saddam was WMD adjacent. Ooh, don't forget Al-Qaeda adjacent.
Good ideas or lack thereof wouldn't explain why internationalist warhawks had the party leashed in 2000. WMDs were the selling point, but not the origin. Dems weren't majority in Congress, so straw opposition was a viable political play.
 
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Let me put this another way. If you want to be "clinical" then you have to operate with precise tools and honest reality. So I took a quick look and Andy Ngo doesn't meet the criteria for doxxing. Further, anyone "adjacent" is your homeopathic remedy at best, and we're trying to be clinical here. So why not go "yeah it was bad they hurt him, don't do that" and carry on with an actual evidence based, precise clinical approach?
 
The dude hangs around the proud boys, works for a publication that is considered to be a part of the alt-right, has a history of turning up at antifa counter-protests and trying to get involved, has a strong fixation towards attacking antifa in the media etc.

These aren't simple coincidences that can be repeatedly ignored and it is disengenous to claim he is some sort of innocent bystander. It's a shame that a man sympathetic with fascists got his head bashed in but i'm not going to lose any sleep over his injuries, especially not when he then tries to milk it online for right-wing grifting money.
 
Let me put this another way. If you want to be "clinical" then you have to operate with precise tools and honest reality. So I took a quick look and Andy Ngo doesn't meet the criteria for doxxing. Further, anyone "adjacent" is your homeopathic remedy at best, and we're trying to be clinical here. So why not go "yeah it was bad they hurt him, don't do that" and carry on with an actual evidence based, precise clinical approach?

This has been my take. No excuse for violence. . .yet. It would be better if we just keep on letting the right wing fall into the violence trap. Caging kids, defending cops shooting unarmed civilians, defending bullies, and so on. This MAGA thing won't look good even to the ones advocating it now in ten years when they look back on its actual policies.
 
The dude hangs around the proud boys, works for a publication that is considered to be a part of the alt-right, has a history of turning up at antifa counter-protests and trying to get involved, has a strong fixation towards attacking antifa in the media etc.

These aren't simple coincidences that can be repeatedly ignored and it is disengenous to claim he is some sort of innocent bystander. It's a shame that a man sympathetic with fascists got his head bashed in but i'm not going to lose any sleep over his injuries, especially not when he then tries to milk it online for right-wing grifting money.

Can someone explain to me how this isn't a fairly civil take? For all of Cloud's intensity this still seems civil enough to me, I mean it is not a Christian take, but than again Christian's hardly ever take that take either so . . .
 
Can someone explain to me how this isn't a fairly civil take? For all of Cloud's intensity this still seems civil enough to me, I mean it is not a Christian take, but than again Christian's hardly ever take that take either so . . .

I would rather fascist adjacent/enablers become collateral then allow the status quo which currently results in the misery and death of, as well as bigotry towards minorities.

I accept that some will consider that unacceptable, so be it, because to me the current situation is unacceptable, untenable and immoral and yet there seems to be little urgency with regards to that and alot of pearl clutching about hypothetical adjacent people and enablers being targetted.

I mean this is real life, black people are being shot and killed, Hispanics are being treated like second class citizens, as are trans people, LGBT rights are being erroded by strident bigots.

Telling me to simmer down and "oh but violence is bad" isn't good enough when violence is already being enacted against a section of society and both society and the government are not even doing the bare minimum to correct it, hence why Antifa is a necessity.
 
It's very common to see something out of bounds and imagine it extends much further. (people be trippin') When I see this common thing Peuri is calling information laundering, I start to wonder how much of my own side is built on (accidental) lies. Is it all of it? Are we suckers with a false, and therefore unnatural and therefore evil ideology? And then my mind keeps going: were the Republicans right all along? Is Dick Cheney the good guy telling dark truths?

Which is BS. The Republicans aren't special. They do it too. And they're still bad, almost on purpose, and maybe not "almost".

I would ask my own team to not trigger my cascading paranoia with dishonest, wishful categorizing. But if it took me this long and truth and reality are what I care about, (not my identity, or acceptance in society etc, or even reconfirmation of my worldview*), it would be, dare I say ableist or privileged for me to ask such folks to cut that sh out. So then I wonder what I can do to steward the process to a better place, but I also wonder if maybe a bunch of people acting out on bad information is somehow a good thing and I'm just a blind man touching an "elephant of good" naming it bad for having a negative/mistruth part to its elephantine process.

*Of course I also do care about these things. But secondarily.

But then I remember the person who sees a mess trending towards optimal, then declaring the messiness the cause of its optimality and then actively trying to make it better by stop agents from trying to make it better, instead of taking the steps to make the mess better that actually were pulling it towards optimality in the first place which gave rise to the observation to begin with (duh). Reminds me of the time I was on a freeway protesting police shootings of unarmed black kids being pushed by an angry cop and I started telling him "it's all just a dance", you know, to chill it out, which of course backfired. Shortly after he aimed his ire at me specifically, started yelling and pushing his hands on his baton into my belly.

Which loops me back to the point of imagining things beyond what they are. If someone like me could be like "wow my own side is made up of really bad miscategorizations and I'm gaining a lot more wisdom seeing other points of view" and then, not check themselves, stay a little crazy, and then make the leap and join the other team, that would be a problem. And then I wonder how deep can it go? Republicans can gain numbers two ways: buy people (tax cuts), and let Democrats push their own out of the party with their own misbehavior. No one who isn't already there is joining them to learn to be better racists.

Do you understand?

No one joins the rightwing because the rightwing has good ideas. The join because they get bought or because there's a lot of mystery on their side, while their own side's loudest members are literally condoning and even finding ways to support violence based on lies. The Iraq War was violence built on lies. Well Saddam was WMD adjacent. Ooh, don't forget Al-Qaeda adjacent.

Andy Ngo was also doxxing people! I'm dubious. Ngo was building the brand of public figures who wanted to get read. That's not doxxing, that's advertising. Unless I'm wrong. I went off one tweet and the top reply (one of the "doxxed"), but certainly not on the analysis of the publication that linked to it.

I don't know when it happened but I thought the Republicans were bad in part because they were wrong and we were right. But if my own side can't identify true and false, and acts wrong in the name of right on truths that are false, my first instinct is to flip the script, and wonder, are we wrong and they are right?

And here's where it gets real tricky: right over on this greener grass promise are a bunch of useful actionable truths that make my life better. Right over the fence are basic wisdoms that sufficiently predictive where my own side's lenses failed me. A lesser mind would take that as proof that they finally "woke up" or found the truth, and would become a convert. I just know if you separate and survive, you will build your own useful and true knowledge and perspectives shared among your own, and that wisdom will grow and refine over time. It doesn't change that the top of their party is a racist pedophile signing off on huge buyouts that entrench and further enrich the already powerful. They do evil things on a grand scale, and use dirty tactics to achieve it. But it's so easy to go "they know so much, that which doesn't penetrate to my world, maybe I'm wrong about those bad things, maybe they a) don't do some of things, b) I'm wrong about what those things do, c) the rest aren't even bad." And then POW! You suddenly have faith. Faith that the low hanging fruits of seeing their point of view disprove your bias against their misdeeds and they're good and you're bad.

And just before I finish remembering their team is harboring the rise of hate crimes against trans-persons, separating and locking up children from parents as acts of terrorism to dissuade migrants, (related: having a labor secretary in charge of investigating human trafficking who was close to Epstein and also lost hundreds of migrant children), always writing new laws to print more money to give to already rich people, and actually fighting for catastrophic climate change, my mind wanders to the issue of the bad actors themselves. And then I think, the bad actors of my side don't invalidate my side, so then....

But aha I've already listed their crimes and it's obvious. And I know their tactics, my favorite of which is to accuse the other side of their own misdoings, which is why pizzagate was the harbinger to us "now" learning the 2016 story of the 90s Trump-Epstein connection. If they prematurely claim we're doing it, it's because they're already guilty. So no surprise. And then I go, goddamn, they really are that bad.

But I've just spent some 3 odd hours trying to detail a multiyear process I relive over and over again, because people on my own team seem to have no discipline on honest recognition of what's happening. Andy Ngo probably is not a doxxer. He didn't deserve to get attacked. And if we have bad morals (it's okay to attack people), and bad defenses of our moral stances (well it's because he is published next to bad people, plus grasping at doxxing straws), who are we to lead what's right?

I remember two things:

1) either I can agree with you, we can be immoral (pro-violence) and dishonest (pro-miscategorizing) to our ends. At which point, f-off, Democrats I'm going to cash in with the real bad guys. Let's steal some wells and sell the water back to them.

or

2) I remember that I'm to the left of all of you. My values are peace and truth, and I hope the path I clear is one you can walk later.
Of course the right is not "right", just because portions of left has taken a downward turn too. But we do not live in a Manichean world where two forces of good and evil are locked in a perpetual battle over the souls of humanity. That is the sort of thinking that brought all the genocides from the French Terror to Pol Pot's massacres and from the Armenian genocide to the Holocaust. Every person has inside them a little hypocrite that wants to see things that back their own narrative, identify the out-group and see them destroyed (by fact and logic, well, not really, any smear will do). Social media just enhances this by severing civic ties between peoples into virtual communities of the righteous (from Tumblr to /pol/). So while I am criticizing "the left", or what ever, I no sense endorse the right. Just that the state of discourse is in the toilet, and someone should try to improve it by turning down the vitriol and lies (intentional or accidental) until we are fighting in the streets. Or maybe we can just fight in the streets, what ever.
 
Quilette part of the alt-right *facepalm*
hangs around proud boys (/antifa fixation)
injury-related donations (grifting money)

Andy Fritz Ngo.

Yeah, really strange how Quillette has given a platform to or defended white nationalists, supremacists, "racialists" (racial science), the leader of the proud boys, Alex Jones, neo-confederates, Neo-Nazis and other assorted scumbags, saying they are being "discriminated against due to their conservatism". If banning any of those mentioned previously is an attack on conservatives may i suggest that the two are so interlocked that they may not be seperable.

You may continue with your disengenous defence.

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Disbelieving injured people is not a leftwing position.
 
Alex Jones is the scoundrel Mencken never had the pleasure of meeting. Banning Mike Morrison probably did no favors to the "we're hitting the really icky ones" cause.

The question is whether you think any of those people should have access to a platform should someone choose to let them.
 
Disbelieving injured people is not a leftwing position.
It's more about making the "other side" look as bad as possible at this point, and making any number of accusations stick. Just look at how @Cloud_Strife constantly wants to conflate anyone who doesn't toe his ideological line as basically a Nazi, or a Nazi-enabler or what ever. That's ideological possession unfolding right in front of one's eyes. Everyone is evil but the in-group.
 
Remember that widely-accepted truth that "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,"?

most people in this thread: let's do nothing. doing things is actually bad.
 
Remember that widely-accepted truth that "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,"?

most people in this thread: let's do nothing. doing things is actually bad.
Yes. Spoken by the ur-father of conservatism who thought societies should be based on tradition, didn't think highly of rationalism, didn't believe in equality as an abstract principle and thought that human rights were a mistake.

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."
-Edmund Burke 1770, Thoughts on the Cause of Present Discontents

Genetic fallacy, I know, just fun to point out.
 
It's more about making the "other side" look as bad as possible at this point, and making any number of accusations stick. Just look at how @Cloud_Strife constantly wants to conflate anyone who doesn't toe his ideological line as basically a Nazi, or a Nazi-enabler or what ever. That's ideological possession unfolding right in front of one's eyes. Everyone is evil but the in-group.

For me at some point the veneer of plausible deniability from the right and centrists starts to fray.
 
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