Antifa rocks!

[Lexicus]

Remember that widely-accepted truth that "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,"?

most people in this thread: let's do nothing. doing things is actually bad.

I dunno, it's very strange to me because the historical takeaway from fascism for me is clearly that fascism needs to be vigorously opposed from the beginning and apparently for a lot of people it's "vigorous opposition to anything is indistinguishable from fascism so we need to let fascists push the overton window right until thousands of people are going up the crematoria smokestacks, then it will be ok to act"

Actually @Peuri if Burke doesn't do it for you, perhaps this quote I ran into this morning on Facebook will:

"Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, 'regretted,' that unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these 'little measures'... must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing - each act is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join you in resisting somehow.

You don't want to act, or even talk, alone; you don't want to 'go out of your way to make trouble.' But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That's the difficulty. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves, when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things your father could never have imagined."

From Milton Mayer, They Thought They Were Free, The Germans, 1933-45 (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1955)

 

[Hygro]

Remember that widely-accepted truth that "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,"?

The loudest, meanest, most violent people on the left are making false claims which become "PARTY LINE". Those of us who know "PARTY LINE" are built on these false claims now have a choice:

a) join in and make false claims (this is evil)
b) stay silent (too much is bad)
c) make contradictory claims (this is fractious and gets you attacked by antifa if you are outside when they storm on by, and maybe fired by a twitter mob)

 

[Estebonrober]

The loudest, meanest, most violent people on the left are making false claims which become "PARTY LINE". Those of us who know "PARTY LINE" are built on these false claims now have a choice:

a) join in and make false claims (this is evil)
b) stay silent (too much is bad)
c) make contradictory claims (this is fractious and gets you attacked by antifa if you are outside when they storm on by, and maybe fired by a twitter mob)

Beyond Slate and huffpost taking very anti-Ngo stances on this whole incident can you elaborate on what false claims you are talking about?

 

[Lexicus]

This meme just seems kind of relevant here for some reason

 

[brennan]

Fascism became front and centre because of marginalisation of 'the mob' in many ways - particularly economically and culturally. The current extremism from the identity-obsessed section of the left, with a lot of support from many sectors of the media is marginalising disadvantaged groups. This, in conjunction with their economic marginalisation by more conservative forces is forcing a currently moderate 'mob' down the same path tramped out a century ago. Those obnoxious types who throw accusations of fascism around like water are going to be directly to blame if fascism is what we end up with.

 

[Hygro]

I dunno, it's very strange to me because the historical takeaway from fascism for me is clearly that fascism needs to be vigorously opposed from the beginning and apparently for a lot of people it's "vigorous opposition to anything is indistinguishable from fascism so we need to let fascists push the overton window right until thousands of people are going up the crematoria smokestacks, then it will be ok to act"

Actually @Peuri if Burke doesn't do it for you, perhaps this quote I ran into this morning on Facebook will:

"Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, 'regretted,' that unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these 'little measures'... must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing - each act is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join you in resisting somehow.

You don't want to act, or even talk, alone; you don't want to 'go out of your way to make trouble.' But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That's the difficulty. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves, when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things your father could never have imagined."

From Milton Mayer, They Thought They Were Free, The Germans, 1933-45 (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1955)

So we cannot accept antifa bullying, not even a bit. Got it.

Beyond Slate and huffpost taking very anti-Ngo stances on this whole incident can you elaborate on what false claims you are talking about?

That he's guilty of doxxing, he's a crypto-fascist, that he's a threat to minorities, that he's the Nazi we have to stop.

I mean, goddamn, I'll reserve labeling him until I listen to his hours long interview where he paints himself in his most favorable light (I believe in that), but I heard he's a self described progressive. Don't we want these people moderating conservative media? Don't we want him reaching out? They say he hangs out with the Proud Boys. I'll find out soon enough. Don't we want that?

Or should we punch every "Nazi-adjacent"?

 

[Kyriakos]

Germanic-adjacents are dangerous. Quintilius Varus, give me back my legions!

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Remember that widely-accepted truth that "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,"?

most people in this thread: let's do nothing. doing things is actually bad.

When "doing things" is a euphemism for "assaulting people" or "stripping people of their rights", then yes, that is bad.

"Hey, let's all go out and kick some puppies to death!"
"Or... we could just not do that because that would be awful?"
"Oh my god why are you defending the status quo! Evil will prosper if you just sit there and refuse to make a stand and kick some puppies to death with me!"

 

[Cloud_Strife]

That he's guilty of doxxing, he's a crypto-fascist, that he's a threat to minorities, that he's the Nazi we have to stop.

I mean, goddamn, I'll reserve labeling him until I listen to his hours long interview where he paints himself in his most favorable light (I believe in that), but I heard he's a self described progressive. Don't we want these people moderating conservative media? Don't we want him reaching out? They say he hangs out with the Proud Boys. I'll find out soon enough. Don't we want that?

Or should we punch every "Nazi-adjacent"?

He's a progressive in the same way Alex Jones is a "skeptic".

Progressives don't tend to buddy around with socially regressive gangs like the Proud Boys, they don't tend to write for a publication with a history of platforming people extremely close to the alt-right, they don't claim that multiculturalism is a "failure" (https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-visit-to-islamic-england-1535581583) and they don't repeat nonsense like "no-go zones in britain" only to get dismissed by the council of the place they visited and lied about. Really weird that a self-described progressive has it in for muslims, strange that.

Is unfair for me, after looking at all of this, to decide that maybe he isn't being totally honest or truthful about his beliefs?

 

[Lexicus]

but I heard he's a self described progressive.

Remember when you described luiz as center-left?

 

[Berzerker]

was MLK really cited in support of the violent suppression of speech?

 

[Peuri]

I dunno, it's very strange to me because the historical takeaway from fascism for me is clearly that fascism needs to be vigorously opposed from the beginning and apparently for a lot of people it's "vigorous opposition to anything is indistinguishable from fascism so we need to let fascists push the overton window right until thousands of people are going up the crematoria smokestacks, then it will be ok to act"

Actually @Peuri if Burke doesn't do it for you, perhaps this quote I ran into this morning on Facebook will:

"Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, 'regretted,' that unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these 'little measures'... must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing - each act is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join you in resisting somehow.

You don't want to act, or even talk, alone; you don't want to 'go out of your way to make trouble.' But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That's the difficulty. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves, when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things your father could never have imagined."

From Milton Mayer, They Thought They Were Free, The Germans, 1933-45 (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1955)

I don't know. I just don't see this as happening in the US, at least yet, maybe I'm just myopic not actually living there, and think that a better way than to push for violent confrontation is to try to return to civility on both sides. Especially Trump's side. That tweet about Ilhan Omar was beyond dumb. But if one side doesn't lead that charge, what will happen? You'll just keep pointing fingers at each other, going off the deep end.

 

[Rashiminos]

was MLK really cited in support of the violent suppression of speech?

Most of his material in that vein was to contrast the needs of the civil rights movement in the US vs the goals of the ANC in South Africa. He wasn't entirely opposed, but he didn't think it would achieve a healthy resolution of South Africa's contemporary predicament, nor would it be applicable in the United States where minorities are, by definition, outnumbered in a physical conflict.

 

[Lexicus]

I don't know. I just don't see this as happening in the US, at least yet, maybe I'm just myopic not actually living there, and think that a better way than to push for violent confrontation is to try to return to civility on both sides. Especially Trump's side. That tweet about Ilhan Omar was beyond dumb. But if one side doesn't lead that charge, what will happen? You'll just keep pointing fingers at each other, going off the deep end.

"That tweet about Ilhan Omar" is actually an example of something that would have been completely intolerable and unimaginable from a US President when my father was my age. But really this more about the concentration camps and the wide segment of the US population that supports them. The really scary thing about that is that it feels more like the third or fourth step toward genocide than the first step.

What is your definition of "going off the deep end"? As far as I'm concerned Trump's immigration policy is already off the deep end.

 

[AmazonQueen]

He's a progressive in the same way Alex Jones is a "skeptic".

Progressives don't tend to buddy around with socially regressive gangs like the Proud Boys, they don't tend to write for a publication with a history of platforming people extremely close to the alt-right, they don't claim that multiculturalism is a "failure" (https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-visit-to-islamic-england-1535581583) and they don't repeat nonsense like "no-go zones in britain" only to get dismissed by the council of the place they visited and lied about. Really weird that a self-described progressive has it in for muslims, strange that.

Is unfair for me, after looking at all of this, to decide that maybe he isn't being totally honest or truthful about his beliefs?

That article about a visit to Islamic England pretty much proves to me that hes a liar on the same wavelength as Tommy Robinson.

 

[Berzerker]

Can someone explain to me how this isn't a fairly civil take? For all of Cloud's intensity this still seems civil enough to me, I mean it is not a Christian take, but than again Christian's hardly ever take that take either so . . .

When Christians do act like Christians are they fascists or just adjacent?

Yeah, really strange how Quillette has given a platform to or defended white nationalists, supremacists, "racialists" (racial science), the leader of the proud boys, Alex Jones, neo-confederates, Neo-Nazis and other assorted scumbags, saying they are being "discriminated against due to their conservatism". If banning any of those mentioned previously is an attack on conservatives may i suggest that the two are so interlocked that they may not be seperable.

Publications partly driven by a devotion to free speech will let people with bad messages speak too, especially when those voices are being silenced. Joe Rogan interviews all sorts of people and Alex Jones is his friend, so Rogan gets labeled alt-right and he'd be silenced even though he describes himself as left/liberal. Hey, Rogan gave Ngo a platform to speak for over an hour, Joe must be at least fascist-adjacent. Rogan also lets people with left wing ideologies on his show, but I dont see the left or the right making a fuss about it. That tells me something about the left and the right, neither may believe in free speech but its the left that takes to the streets to make sure the other 'side' is silenced.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Rogan does like to platform people who are considered alt-right, most interestingly of all he's platformed the leader of the proud boys.

I would certainly call Rogan fash-adjacent, infact he goes far as to monetize it.

 

[Berzerker]

I dunno, it's very strange to me because the historical takeaway from fascism for me is clearly that fascism needs to be vigorously opposed from the beginning and apparently for a lot of people it's "vigorous opposition to anything is indistinguishable from fascism so we need to let fascists push the overton window right until thousands of people are going up the crematoria smokestacks, then it will be ok to act"

Actually @Peuri if Burke doesn't do it for you, perhaps this quote I ran into this morning on Facebook will:

"Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, 'regretted,' that unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these 'little measures'... must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing - each act is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join you in resisting somehow.

You don't want to act, or even talk, alone; you don't want to 'go out of your way to make trouble.' But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That's the difficulty. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves, when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things your father could never have imagined."

From Milton Mayer, They Thought They Were Free, The Germans, 1933-45 (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1955)

Was the violent suppression of speech one of those steps?

 

[AmazonQueen]

When Christians do act like Christians are they fascists or just adjacent?

Most Christians don't act like Christians. Quakers though definitely aren't fascist adjacent.

 

[Rashiminos]

Was the violent suppression of speech one of those steps?

Not precisely. Singapore is authoritarian, but not so genocidal.

Deplatformist notions get you a little closer.