[R&F] Anyone think Korea is OP?

[Bad Wolf]

Not saying they necessarily are but I wanna hear your experiences. I remember Korea being kind of unfair in Civ V and it seems they've done it again lol. Korea is a science machine, it's absolutely nuts. In my current game (Large, Epic, Fractal, King), at no point has Seondeok had less than 175% of my science yield, and for long periods it was in excess of 200% until I started cranking out campuses and universities just to try to keep up with her! I've got like five universities out now and she's still so far ahead of me I don't think it's even possible to catch up. She took over three German cities in the early game (wiped out Barbarossa) and has been steamrolling ever since (just entered the Industrial era). The only thing I could think of to deal with her is to just kneecap her and try to liberate Germany (new loyalty system means I can't just take her cities). So I got Teddy to go to war against her with me - he was quite eager, he actually gave ME coffee, sugar and tea (the breakfast trifecta) in the bargain. So he's keeping her distracted on land while I handle the sea invasion (incidentally, will probably make another thread for this, but Indonesia is an amazing maritime civ).

Thinking I'm gonna have to smack Gorgo down next (she's got like 3x as much culture and tourism as anyone else, so I need to nip that in the bud now) but cultural civs are far easier to deal with than science civs.

 

[Good2B]

Playing a game as Korea right now on Immortal, and its ridiculous. I have 195 science output and the second place has just 97. I could seriously wipe the continent easily since my troops are so much more powerful than everyone else. And with Divine Spark, I have GP's popping like crazy. Haven't seen much of her as an AI though.

 

[Melchizedek]

They're certainly the best at science, but since there are other victory conditions I consider them very strong—probably top tier—but not OP in the sense of needing a nerf. Keep in mind that racing ahead in science slows down other districts. Early game, they're similar to Sumeria without war carts: that is, quite a bit worse. They can have as much science as they want, but overdoing it will actually hold back their overall development. Later on they have a big science edge, but like other late advantages they need to be big to matter in Civ, where an early advantage is so important.

Here would be a fun mod: you get all the advantages of Korea and Nubia, but you have to win by science in 115 turns.

If you want to nerf Korea, the best way would be to stop letting players lock in district cost. Make the district cost keep rising until the district is completed, which was probably the original intention anyway, and suddenly production will become more crucial compared with science.

 

[UWHabs]

Playing a game as Korea right now on Immortal, and its ridiculous. I have 195 science output and the second place has just 97. I could seriously wipe the continent easily since my troops are so much more powerful than everyone else. And with Divine Spark, I have GP's popping like crazy. Haven't seen much of her as an AI though.

I just finished a game. With a cultural alliance and Stockholm, I was pulling in 700 science at the end with ~15 cities (although 3 tundra cities and a couple small ones captured from Tamar), and about 60 great scientist points per turn. And I didn't even get to the culture tree to add the +10% science per suzerain city-state either. They were definitely a science powerhouse.

 

[RohirrimElf]

Korea is the most OP nation in the game right now.

 

[Bad Wolf]

The thing about science bonuses is they're so outrageously good, that's why most civs don't even get them, and the civs that do get them get very minor bonuses on top of a bunch of other ones. Making Korea pure science, as in Civ V, makes them effectively unstoppable if you let them get a running start. I don't even want to find out how insane their AI must be on higher difficulties.

 

[Victoria]

makes them effectively unstoppable

GOTM 33 is winning a science victory with Korea in the game on another continent. IF Korea can take out a couple of neighbours they are unstoppable but you can beat them otherwise.

 

[3 EMS]

They are all over powered in the hands of a human player. Play Indonesia on an islands map and settle coastal cities.

 

[PhilBowles]

They're certainly the best at science, but since there are other victory conditions I consider them very strong—probably top tier—but not OP in the sense of needing a nerf.

While there are other victory conditions, not only is science the 'default' in the sense that it's the one that demands the least specialisation (however the game goes you're going to progress down the tech tree, and staying ahead in science is more important in general than staying ahead in culture or faith; and you don't need to focus on either conquest or on an otherwise often useless resource like tourism or faith), but high science output is also necessary for any victory type. It's not much of a hindrance to Korea that it has no direct bonuses to the others - it's already well-placed to have more advanced militaries or resource production techs.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Yea they are sorta ridiculous. They're clearly one of the best civs, though I would put them below the big 5 IMO (Sumeria /Scythia/Aztec/Greece/Russia) but those aren't exactly balanced either. No dlcs besides Aztec though nor have I played the other expansion civs. Korea is pretty 1 dimensional though granted that is all it needs.

 

[rattatatouille]

Korea's very powerful but their lack of early military bonuses makes them a favorite target for your first war. Zulu's in the same boat - eliminate them early and you prevent headaches later.

 

[Bad Wolf]

Ooh I haven't encountered Shaka yet. I'm assuming he's going to be just as charming as he was in Civs 4 and 5.

Korea's very powerful but their lack of early military bonuses makes them a favorite target for your first war.

I've learned my lesson I'll definitely attack them much sooner next time (Hwacha are not fun to deal with).

 

[isau]

Ooh I haven't encountered Shaka yet. I'm assuming he's going to be just as charming as he was in Civs 4 and 5.

I started next to Shaka twice. Was able to make friends with him and keep him at bay most of the game.

The one to worry about is Chandragupta. His trigger for anger is the fact that you are close by. I've got elephant footprints covering every inch of my beautiful territories. Luckily in my last game I was able to beat him back thanks to careful use of mountains and geography.

 

[Bad Wolf]

His trigger for anger is the fact that you are close by.

Oh, great.

 

[PhilBowles]

I started next to Shaka twice. Was able to make friends with him and keep him at bay most of the game.

The one to worry about is Chandragupta. His trigger for anger is the fact that you are close by. I've got elephant footprints covering every inch of my beautiful territories. Luckily in my last game I was able to beat him back thanks to careful use of mountains and geography.

I rolled Chandragupta in my new game. Trajan made the mistake of attacking me, and it didn't go very well for him.

 

[kingofsealand]

So powerful if you take industrial heartbeat, Which you can get both industrial and modern era I believe. It did feel overpowered honestly I won a science victory with them at least 50 turns earlier than I would with most other civs.

I did notice they got eaten by Australia in my current game as Netherlands though. They certainly are encouraged to go for science early which leaves them vulnerable till hwacha come into play. But besides that I don't see a better choice for science victory currently

 

[Koot Katmandu]

I have only played against Korea twice. Both times they were a power house. Easily doubled the science of any other civ and encouraged to go production since they get science adj bonus for mines. It looks like they might be overpowered. I was able to beat them on King, with spies, but recently lost to them in the GOTM 33 on Immortal. This was my first immortal game so I am not really surprised I lost.

 

[isau]

Another question is why the description of the Seowon district fails to mention it suffers a -1 adjacency bonus for each adjacent district. That's a pretty important thing to know for your city planning. I was confused at first why placing it adjacent to a city center was causing the otherwise locked +4 Science total to go down.

FWIW here is how I nerfed Korea for my personal modding purposes. Still very powerful IMO but hopefully should slow down ridiculous runaway AIs.

 

[Morningcalm]

I've found the Scotland AI to be tougher science victory wise in my Immortal games. I think the +4 science bonus becomes less potent in the face of Scottish Great Scientist points, even with the ridiculous campus-adjacency doubling card.

 

[Tiger Genocide]

In my current Mongolia game I have Korea as a neighbor. I took two of her cities even though I had plans to take some city states instead.

Her science is high but without her capital she cannot win. I Hope.