AP-2 Suleiman's conquest (RFC)

[blizzrd]

To do:

1. Capture Fort Albany from the English using Air Ships to reduce the defending Redcoats so that our approaching Cavalry don't impale themselves needlessly.
2. Capture (or perhaps selectively raze?) the remaining English home cities. There are some more troops approaching Paris which should be ferried across the English Channel ASAP.
3. Get one of our returned spies in Istanbul over to America and steal Nationalism. Put a spy back in Santander also.
4. If our stability decreases below Shaky (currently we are at -6), change our civics to State Property, Free Religion EDIT and Occupation before launching our next Golden Age. The Golden Age is ready to go but we should time it optimally to buffer our stability after the civic switch. It will be quite some time before we can get Radio for the Christo Redentor and we are likely going to have to bite it and change our civics before we have Christo Redentor.
5. Keep preferentially building stability buidlings wherever possible (courthouses, jails, intelligence agencies and security burueas) in our cities.
6. Try to get America to vassalize to us. We can declare on them eventually (once England is gone) if they don't willingly accept our overlordship.

Here are some snapshots of the current world map:

Europe:

Eurasia:

North America:

And here is our current stability breakdown:

Not to forget (patience Burnemdown!), here is the save:

 

[BurnEmDown]

Got it, It's pounding time I think only London and Iverness should be captured, the rest razed, anyone disagree?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Nice moves, but I would have done the last turn differently.

Capturing London is good, but now America probably won't vassalize to us (because we're at war with England already). Also, the fact you opened borders with America means they can go found all those cities in the Rockies (even Edmonton which has oil) and will be much harder to kill. They will eat into our culture because they have the "rights" to the land.

I've always waited till at least infantry to tackle the British, it's more fun that way and by then I would have had fascism and can switch to police state/occupation/nationhood.

We do need a vassal in America, and since the Aztecs are already vassalized we may have to capitulate America ourselves.

Also our empire is too big for civic changes, better wait till Cristo Redentor. Any anarchy will probably drive a respawn soon (especially Greece and Rome).

If Spain will take the Irish cities or Exeter, give it to them. Raze Manchester but make sure we have enough troops to defend against the "citizen armies."

I forgot to mention that even though the British are not such good vassals because they suck at liberation, they do have Vancouver and Rockampton, and we really do not want these cities; also, their tech rate is 2nd best so we can redirect them to research techs like fission, so having them as a capitulated vassal may not be such a bad idea. They can probably absorb their old colonies back (including Philly and Boston) so we can turn around and kill America instead.

 

[BurnEmDown]

Turn 1 - I raze Fort Albany with no losses, will take the other English city next turn. Troops in London heal for 1 turn, and get reinforced with some Rifles from France. We drop to Unstable, I would switch to SP, FR, and Occupation as Blizzrd suggested, but we don't have Nationalism yet.

Turn 2 - We raze both Exeter and York Factory (no option of liberating immedietly and I don't want to risk extra stability malus from keeping them).

Turn 3 - Nothing Special. We're back to Shaky (-19).

Turn 4 - England settles Plymouth 0o. I suggest ignoring that city and focus on capitulating them or destablize them enough to trigger civil war. Aztecs are no longer England's vassal, but still won't talk. I set some cities to build gold (We really have enough units). and Crank up research so Ass. Line will be done in 5 turns, instead of 6.

Turn 5 - We capture Manchester at the loss of a rifle and I choose to keep it, We'll need a small base from which to capture Iverness, and England still won't capitulate. It's capital is now Vancouver, which will probably make it very unstable (the rest of the cities are overseas colonies). World Congress will be held in 2 turns, even tho only America has Nationalism? 0o. I rush build Privateer in Mekke as an enemy Privateer is blockading us and the SotL we built there died against 98% odds!!

turn 6 - England grants independence to Belfast, which makes weird culture thing happen in England, which makes Manchester cut-off culturally from London. I capture Plymouth and liberate to Spain.

turn 7 - Congress: China makes no request. We ask for Iverness and fail. Catherine wants Gaziantep (NO) and succeeds, I deny - no war! Bismark asks for Fort Apollonia (former Dutch city) (Abstain) and succeeds. Elizabeth asks for Plymouth (NO) and succeeds, DAMN! Isabella asks for a Japanese city in Inca's territory (YES) and succeeds. Khmer wants Persian city (NO) and fail. Ragnar wants London (NO) and succeeds, I deny - no war!
What's with the pacifist AI? Usually I get DoW from denying city ownership transfer.
AP resolution - open borders succeeds. English Frigate appears near Mekke, I rush build an Ironclad which will remove all these naval problems from Mekke, however, this was a mistake, due to...

Turn 8 - The respawn of Arabia! they take Al-Quds, Mekke and Dalmum (from Persia). This is however a boost to our economy and stability I think. I end my set here since It seems like a good turning point. I've sent some cavalry from Moskva towards the middle east, with cannons following them. As long as Arabia doesn't get too many troops this won't be a big problem. BTW A.Line is done in 1 turn (set research to 0%).

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I'm sorry, this is not a good turn of events. I would not have razed all those cities (which is the reason we're unstable). You could have potentially kept Arabia which we have to recapture again, plus it's 2 shrines lost (including Temple of Solomon). Remember, this is conquest, which means any civ that respawns lowers the limit for domination, and you HAVE to kill or vassalize them. Arabia is actually part of our home turf, so losing it is not an option.

Burning Fort Albany the ground opens up Edmonton to the Americans, plus it means that if they found Toronto themselves, it will eat into our Chicago territory. I would have kept Fort Albany.

That is why it's not good to declare war in really "foreign" territory without first having occupation or police state/nationhood.

I think this calls for a replay. BurnEmDown if you don't want to do it I can.

 

[BurnEmDown]

I see, I'll replay the turns later today. No problem
Edit: Actually, I won't have a lot of free time , so if you want you can go ahead and replay my turn set

 

[blizzrd]

Also, the fact you opened borders with America means they can go found all those cities in the Rockies (even Edmonton which has oil) and will be much harder to kill. They will eat into our culture because they have the "rights" to the land.

OK, so we should close borders with America after we steal Nationalism then.

We do need a vassal in America, and since the Aztecs are already vassalized we may have to capitulate America ourselves.

Agreed. Shouldn't be too hard though.

Also our empire is too big for civic changes, better wait till Cristo Redentor. Any anarchy will probably drive a respawn soon (especially Greece and Rome).

Let's just focus on one civic swap to Occupation then and launch our Golden Age to buffer us out after the anarchy. We should prioritize Nationalism immediately. We can wait a little for Assembly Line, we are already the biggest military machine around anyways. Occupation and conquering a bunch of cities in England and North America should keep us afloat long enough to bring in Radio for Christo Redentor.

If we drop Science to 0% and pump up Espionage we should be able to Steal Nationalism from America in a couple of turns (as opposed to around 10 turns on trickle Espionage). We can build a Spy in Chicago and walk to Boston faster than we can transport a Spy from Istanbul. I think Boston would be the cheapest target city to steal from, but check the Espionage window to confirm this.

I forgot to mention that even though the British are not such good vassals because they suck at liberation, they do have Vancouver and Rockampton, and we really do not want these cities; also, their tech rate is 2nd best so we can redirect them to research techs like fission, so having them as a capitulated vassal may not be such a bad idea. They can probably absorb their old colonies back (including Philly and Boston) so we can turn around and kill America instead.

Agree with this approach. I've never had a bad experience with England as a vassal myself. England also currently have cities in Western Sahara and Australia also which are junky locations.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

0.1781 As per blizzrd's call, switch Chicago's build to spy, switch all espionage to Americans, and since it costs about 7000 points now (if we don't have any more cities), it'll be stolen by the end of my turn. Kept AL at 60% science for now.

1. 1784 We're unstable. Start Ironworks in Gaziantep (currently our most productive city, I figure that Denver will have enough hammers on its own and we do need a productive base in Europe closer to Russia). Washington (both the man and the city) gives us half their food to Chicago (still just cautious to us though). Since we have 4 great people in Bogazkoy, I switch civics to State Property and will go GA next turn. Use Amsterdam as our loading dock.

2. 1787 We get the Holy mountain quest. (probably in Tibet or Alaska ) I hit the GA panic button! We can turn science up to 70% without a loss. Raze York Factory since it's going to eat into Duluth's space. England won't capitulate.

3. 1790 Vikings ask for Democracy--hah! We see the Holy Mountain since we have lots of Jewish buildings, it's in that mainland peninsula NE of Hokkaido...too bad the Japanese never found a city over there. It's a worthless quest though, a quote from Sabio (another forummer): "You have to build a city too far away from your empire. The city maintenance cost don't worth the +1 in all cities."
England willing to make peace but no capitulation.

4. 1793 We get the 7 Amphitheater quest! Spy arrives in Philadelphia. 2 more turns should net us Nationalism.

5. 1796 Invite for international congress. We have plenty of amphitheaters so since we have the Statue of Zeus, we get another 8 turns of GA! We seem to be starving all over since the generous Russians sent us food from Tver. They're just annoyed now instead of furious. I capture Manchester but England still won't capitulate.

6. 1799 AP vote comes up, I do a little mischief and ask to stop trade with the Khmer (vassal of China)--if they won't open borders with us, they might as well die. Aztecs break free of England. Sure enough, I see 2 American rifles and a settler heading towards the oil in Edmonton, and we can't close borders with them unless we declare war. I rush trading company in Istanbul since we need the stock exchange there soon.

7. 1802 AP resolution succeeds. Congress results (our vote, actual vote):
Bismarck wants Stockholm (y/n)
Victoria wants Dilli (n/n)
Isabella wants Tampico (y/n)
Ragnar wants London (n/y)--no war
Toku doesn't ask for any
Darius wants Dzhezkazgan (y/y)
We want Tampico (n/n 4 against 4, us against the world)
Catherine wants Samara (n/n)
Our archaeologists found some rolls in the hill NW of Mekke, giving us AL next move! We can now switch some cities to wealth.
Americans refound York Factory off the coast and is building culture. That's OK, since we'll probably have to capitulate them next.
Great scientist born in Sparta, I ice him.

8. 1805 Even though we're unstable, the gods of stability decided to have Ethiopia respawn--they decide to choose the Chinese as their masters (which dooms them in our book). I OB with them. AL in, electricity next. We also steal nationalism from the Americans. Factories all around. We capture Inverness and I liberate to Germany who will now take Manchester and London, so I give him Manchester. We're shaking and hopefully going up.

9. 1808 We capture Belfast. England is fighting to the last man, so it seems we have to capture Vancouver after all.

10. 1811 England collapses. London comes out of rebellion. Pentagon in 5 turns in Gaziantep. We need biology next so I redirect our vassals to research it. The only category going down is foreign, so I decide to make peace with the Aztecs for now. I would prefer the Americans as vassals, but either one is fine. Just to see if the Spanish will take Cork, I capture it, but unfortunately no which is fine.

To do:
1. Next target should be America before they become too powerful (they're almost done with steam power and will get AL next). I'm sending our English veterans towards the US. Russia can be safely let to stew in their backwardness until we get tanks.
2. We're running 70% research with surplus. Research path is Electricity (3 turns), Radio, railroad, combustion, industrialism.
3. As soon as Cristo is done, switch to free religion and spread religion around! When we about to war, we can go to police state/nationhood/occupation, unless our stability is bad.
4. I didn't start the Olympic Park yet because I'm waiting for more factories and coal plants to come online. I would probably choose a city close to the Russians to build it, or Chicago is fine too. Make sure we finish it before our current GA ends (8 more turns).
5. I notice Magnitogorsk is independent, maybe we can go capture it and release to either the Persians or Germans.
6. I sent an airship to Montevideo to finish our map in South America, sell it to everybody soon.
7. I see Fort Apollonia is the only city left in Mali. When we're stable enough, go ahead and raze it to prevent Mali from respawning. Arguin can be left alone for now, or we can go capture it to liberate to the Spanish.
8. Great people: we need 4 more for another GA. Great Spy in Babil in 8 turns, I set some specialists in Istanbul and Paris for the next one other than a spy. It's going to be really hard to get 1 of each from now on, so we might just want to burn those great people for cash or research. Remember, a great spy will never be caught or die from plague, so we can use him to scout out territory.
9. For territories that can respawn (like Netherlands and Arabia, make sure we get some infantry and cannon (3-4 will do) close by so that whenever they respawn, we can recapture them right away before they build up defenses. Squash them like bugs before they multiply.

Screenshots:

Spoiler :

Trynthlas you can pick up from me and I'll relinquish my turn to BurnEmDown after you.

 

[blizzrd]

Was Burnemdown not going to replay those turns?

America are pushovers. They don't currently appear to have any settlers moving to Edmonton and only have a single Rifleman (at best) in each of their cities. We could close borders with them currently but I think it is better for our stability if we keep borders open for now.

We should wait until we switch to Occupation (EDIT: and Free Religion) before:
- trying to vassalize America
- conquering any more cities

That means we have to research Electricity and Radio and also build the Christo Redentor. That's at least 15 turns and this assumes that we extend our Golden Age with Olympic Park within the next 8 turns (3 turns for Electricity, 9 turns for Radio and 3 turns to build in Gaziantep).

Can the next player please stop Gaziantep from slowly starving by working the farmed plains tile to the NW that Moscow is currently working.

Espionage is currently way higher than we need against Germany and Spain to steal Biology when it eventually comes in. Let's see if we can steal some cash (keeping one spy to eventually steal techs though) with our surplus spies. Do not infiltrate anyone with our Great Spy as this is unnecessary.

It's probably overkill to place our entire army in North America. They don't have enough troops to justify this. I think some troops should eventually be positioned down in Spanish cities within South America also, eventually readying for some attacks on the Incas and Japanese cities down there.

Then we will also need to some filter troops back towards Moscow for the eventual resumption of hostilities with Russia.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I thought BurnEmDown said he was too busy.

Remember Aztecs also need to be killed, so 3 galleons' worth of troops isn't really a lot. I would basically work our way westward with our troops, going from America to Aztecs, to Inca (which brings us into war with Japan which is easy to collapse). Europe can concentrate on building troops for the Russians and Vikings. I would probably do China last since we should go at them on both sides, and once they have their oil sabotaged, they are easy pickings.

Sometimes the best build is wealth/research--you're assuming we don't build any research in our cities for your calculations. We maybe able to shave 1-2 turns off radio if we build enough wealth for 100% research, then research for the rest.

No more troops to be built until the Pentagon comes in (wastes the extra promotion that we can easily get and costs us maintenance).

Build some ships to be able to harass the Vikings without too many troops.

 

[blizzrd]

I thought BurnEmDown said he was too busy.

Yes he did, but he made that edit at exactly the same minute that I made my post so I only just saw it.

Sometimes the best build is wealth/research--you're assuming we don't build any research in our cities for your calculations. We maybe able to shave 1-2 turns off radio if we build enough wealth for 100% research, then research for the rest.

That's micromanagement of our research. That's the sort of thing I do, but I don't assume that everyone else does.

No more troops to be built until the Pentagon comes in (wastes the extra promotion that we can easily get and costs us maintenance).

Agreed, with the sole exception of Air Ships. How many do we have? I usually aim for 3 sets of 4 Air Ships myself.
5 turns in Gaziantep for Pentagon to come in.

Build some ships to be able to harass the Vikings without too many troops.

Do we really have a shortage of Ships of the Line / Frigates? I think perhaps we could use some more Galleons (later to become Transports) but I think we're OK for bombarding naval units? I built quite a few during my recent turn set.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

We have an ironclad and ship of the line in the Red Sea, 3 frigates S of New Orleans, 2 Ship of the Line waiting off the Portuguese coast to go across the Atlantic, and another Ship of the Line accompanying our 3 galleons across.

We need at least another 4-6 ships to be able to completely blockade the Vikings and Russians off the Arctic coast. Then we probably won't need to build any more ships until we upgrade them to destroyers. The only coastal powers that can threaten us right now are the Americans, Chinese and Japanese. Everybody else either don't have the production or the coast to produce ships. I found that ships tend to be useless and cost money when we're so much more advanced than the AIs.

Airships are kinda useless nowadays, I think the 8 we have is probably more than enough for war in 1 front. (As you mentioned the Americans have pretty much spread all their troops thin so there won't be too much in 1 city for 8 airships to bomb). Why not wait till flight when we can build bombers (much more useful with collateral damage)?

 

[Trynthlas]

Got it for tonight.

 

[Trynthlas]

Played until I built the Cristo Redentor...which happened to be the same turn that Arabia decided to respawn - not built up with troops as much as we should be, but we can retake the 2 cities that flipped easily enough (2 of ours plus 1 of persia's).

Full report later (tomorrow morning at latest) ... for now going to hang out with the wife

 

[BurnEmDown]

Persia's city is really not important, it was just a drain on their economy, the only cities we need are Jerusalem and Mecca.

 

[blizzrd]

No this is bad, as it was earlier when Arabia respawned. That outcome was replayed, and we need to again here I think.

This SG rules call for a vote amongst players to replay if we need to. I think we need to, I'm ready to replay the turns if Trynthlas you are not able to do so.

I'm certain that we can get to Christo without any respawns, what with an existing 8 turns of Golden Age and our Olypmic Park yet to be built.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Well, since we do have Cristo now, it's actually not as bad as last turn, because we can now switch to police state/nationhood and occupation which will give us an almost immediate boost in stability (takes about 2-3 turns for it to kick in), and conquering them back may be better for our stability long term. It does give us the chance to raze Dalmun (which is also in Babylon's spawn territory BTW), although disbanding it would have been preferable. Why don't we see his report first before deciding, please show us stability especially.

 

[Trynthlas]

Turn 359:
- Toku demands Physics. Nope.

Spoiler :

- Factories built, on to Coal Plants

Turn 360:
- Traded Stone to Darius and Marble to Izzy for a nice pile of health resources, not that they seem to help with our unhealthy problem due to factory+coal plant+power (guess bonuses don't stack, I seem to have thought they did...)

Spoiler :

Turn 361:
- Lincoln asks for a map trade. Sure why not.
- Stalin wants a DP. Nope.
- Electricity comes in, I start Radio
- Aztecs sent food to Marsin (event). Okie dokie

Spoiler :

- Since we didn't have Pentagon yet, I made a selection of cities build Wealth, enough so that we could run 100% science with positive gpt

Turn 362:
- Troops near Magnitogorsk hadn't captured it on the turn prior, Germany finishes the job for us (not sure if that's good, but certainly not horrible)

Spoiler :

Turn 363:
- Pentagon finishes, only 3 turns of GA left so I queue the Olympic Palace (2 turns)

Spoiler :

Turn 364:
- Toku cancels rice/silk/5 gpt for horse. Whatever.
- AP vote option comes up, I pick None

Spoiler :

Turn 365:
- China + vassals DoW Japan

Turn 366:
- Lincoln wants Communism. Nope.
- Toku comes knocking for me to DoW the Vikings. Nope.
- Radio comes in, start Railroad
- Persia captures Salalah (Arabian peninsula ind. city) and gives it to us, I disband

Spoiler :

Turn 367:
- Steal Bio from the Germans, tell them to tech Medicine next
- America captures Tampico from the Aztecs, they make peace with Aztecs vassalizing to America (not a big deal, Aztecs are totally backwards and our troops in N.Am. are all upgraded to Infantry - will crush America's rifles easy)

Spoiler :

Turn 368:
- Ethiopia asks for Physics. Nope.

Spoiler :

Turn 369:
- Vikings make a DP with Russia...which isn't a big deal, because...

Turn 370:
- Railroad in, start Combustion
- We finish Graceland in Denizli (Denver)
- We capture Kalinin (former Russian city now ind. near Moskva) - I keep it with the intent of releasing it to Germans later unless it's useful.
- hit enter....

Spoiler :

Turn 371:
- Arabia splits
- Ragnar wants us to DoW Inca. No thanks.
- Cristo finishes in Gaziantep (which also built the OP)
- Russia collapses

Spoiler :

^ did not play any of this last turn, that's just what happened at the beginning before any moves were made. 4 turns of Golden Age left.

Stability-wise, we haven't really changed - I made an effort to build some of the government buildings in cities (mainly in america) that didn't have them.

Spoiler :

Save attached!


edit: oh, forgot about GPs again. We unfortunately got 2 GSpy, so they're both in Istanbul along with the GS - not sure what to do with em.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Trynthlas, here are the mistakes you probably made:

1. When the Persians capture a city for you, it counts as you who captured it, and if you raze it, you get the stability hit. (i.e. doesn't count as disbanding)
2. Magnitogorsk should have been captured and released to a vassal--we're at that point with 20+ cities where capturing a city and then liberating it (or just giving it to whoever wants it) will boost our stability. The Germans should not have been allowed to capture it themselves.
3. I would not have touched Kalinin (it's close enough that it will probably flip to us to be disbanded, since it's too close to Moscow). Capturing it just brought the stability down enough for the Arabians to respawn. Capturing while you're in occupation would have been much better, and I would probably do a whole bunch of independent cities, give them all to the Vikings at one time, then declare war the same turn and recapture them.

Blizzrd played from my turn and was stable throughout. Maybe we should see his version of the game and then decide.

 

[blizzrd]

I had a similar turn set experience in a number of aspects, but importantly was never unstable enough to see a respawn. We must have been Unstable (as opposed to Shaky) for Arabia to respawn at the end of Trynthlas's turn set. The subsequent loss of a few cities would then have raised us a little which is why the final outcome was Shaky.

But to be Unstable during a Golden Age (which provides +15 stability) is not good at all. I prioritized management of our stability during the replay. I also got to Christo Redentor 2 turns earlier.

It is important to explain that AnotherPacifist and myself don't want to discourage our teammates when these replays occur. My intent is only to show by example how the complex stability system can be worked to achieve a conquest victory. I believe that AnotherPacifist is much the same in this respect.

Unfortunately there is a very small margin for error with our stability in this quest for conquest victory.

The turn set that I'm about to post has us finishing around +15 more stable than Trynthlas's turn set does. The overall picture is much the same, but +15 is really quite significant to our long-term prospects of holding our large empire together. Given the small differences to our overall position but the big difference to our stability, I think either Trynthlas or Burnemdown should resume with the extra stability. Depending on availability over the Christmas period the order of the next two turn sets could be flexible between you?