AP-3 Lu Bu the Flying General

[Xenoborg]

I'll take a look when I get home in 7 hours and play a few after that.

I will probably switch to Confucianism. I can't remember offhand what their exact numbers are, but I feel that the gold from Purchasing (we will have a lot of specialists soon) would be better than extra commerce from towns, which we don't have many (any?) of.

I will need to check the numbers but we will probably get our first GP from Pu Yang, the second from Lou Yang (2 free specialists, but probably not a Philosopher), and a third from Xu Chang (we can run 4 Philosophers with the shrine).

Military direction I can't say without looking at the save.

 

[Xenoborg]

Military wise: Mop up of Kong Rong and Yuan Shu.
Civics: Power to Confucianism: Opens forigen trade, faster workers and cottages. We lose +25% GG points in our own borders, but almost all our fighting is offensive anyway.
Strong to Normal: Get 25% more GPP (taking a single specialist from 2 to 3) and lost 2 exp and 1 happy on temples.
Diplo: Nothing going on, we may be able to trade for Ancient Dictionary later, but no one wants to yet.
Also, what is with the "-X You control the holy city of our state belief"? I could understand for Pure Force or Rebellion but we are Unification ourselves, and they still are mad about it.
Tech: After Reformed Poetry (10 atm) I would go for Code of Laws for Meritocracy (+100 GPP, +1 trade). I like to get this civic early as the starting selection civics all have same annoying drawbacks.
Cities: Spreading Unification, building Unification buildings then forges and granaries. Most cities will be running merchants until schools or forges finish.
I will check for comments and play in a few hours.

 

[Kenjister]

One thing to remeber is that we probably should be heading down the road to Calendar soon. Remember all our cities get a -2 happiness penalty, making a SE very hard to run without it.


A little tip I have for the legion system is to specialize your hero in a single combat type and no more (only Melee, Archery of Cav for example) since you can only field one unit type at a time and also since the unique promotions are VERY powerful.

Also for this game, we really don't need to specialize in the Attack promotions as much due to our Faction Trait (+30% on offence is enough for most battles). What we might want to do though is promote some of the Wei generals like Xiahou Dun a level or two in Defence. Though it might not be very useful now, if we do any later game attacking it will be crucial in protecting our Attack generals (Lu Bu and Gao Shun) from certain defeat. Just to throw the numbers out here, if Lu Bu promotes to Attack 3 he would get a -30% strength penalty on defence plus the inherent -15% from our Faction Trait. Same with Zhang Liao, unless you take Defence I with him, which I don't recommend though since he has too many other good promotions to pass up.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

You realize that normal is high maintenance and that's why I didn't choose it. If you do it with Confucianism you'll probably not get Reformed Poetry in 10 turns.
If you're willing to wait till code of laws for the 100% GP points from meritocracy (also high maintenance) and switch together to Agrarian Colony that might be better. Eventually, you're right, we should be in normal to maximize the spread of religions in our territory, but that's only if our economy can sustain it.
We really should maximize the use of Corvee for its bonus on building units and buildings before we switch to AC. I would build some swords now to attack Liu Bei and Liu Biao. Neither of them should be allowed to go very far techwise. Start with Liu Biao (without Xiangyang he's powerless) while Liu Bei is busy getting his shrine ready for us.
By forges you mean Blacksmith's workshop, there is actually a separate Forge building later on (and a Metal Bureau). Either way they give ministers (engineers).

 

[Kenjister]

I also support staying in Corvee... right now our production is very low without the added food bonus and building bonus. Though it appears we might have enough troops to pull off our next campaign off without replacements, if anything unexpected happens we don't want to be stuck in a long war of attrition.

Something I don't think any of us discussed yet is whether or not we should keep Yuan Shao happy with us. Since he is on our kill list, it makes sense just to snub him, but then again, he may decide we have to die first and start a nice troop buildup.
What I've done in a few of my games is to befriend Yuan Shao until he gets himself involved in a war vs. Gongsun Zan or Zhang Yang, then rush in without fear of a major counterattack.
Remember Yuan Shao has some of the best territory on the map, and he will be a tech and power leader if left alone. I say we cripple Liu Biao, then forget about Liu Bei until we deal with Yuan Shao. Liu Bei's land isn't quite as good, and he's quite boxed in, unlike Yuan Shao who may or may not absorb Nei Bei (pretty much the Northern Territories).

 

[AnotherPacifist]

You're right, we should not let Yuan Shao fester in the north. Liu Bei can't really grow big, but as soon as Yuan Shu is dead, he'll be annoyed with us and declare soon. So I say we cripple Liu Biao (but be sure to capture at least 2 cities to allow Xiangyang not to flip culturally back to him--I've had that happen before), wait for Liu Bei to build his shrine while we do a buildup for Yuan Shao. Just be aware that Jizhou crossbows have lots of bonus against horses, so we better bring lots and lots of crossbows and swords and not rely on blitz.

Another candidate for easy pickings would be Li Jue west of Luoyang. Whenever Ma Teng declares on Li Jue we should be prepared to do the same. If Chang An is allowed to build all their walls you really need lots of espionage to knock the walls down in 1 move, or be prepared to build 8-10 trebuchets to knock them down.

 

[Kenjister]

Jizhou Crossbowmen, I totally forgot about those. Another reason to take on Yuan Shao, and fast, since most of our heroes are promoted for mounted units.

If we plan on taking the West, we really better hope Li Jue doesn't build the Stone Sentinel Maze in Chang An. I've had that before... and it makes the city immune to bombardment. In that game, Li Jue also had employed Zhang Ren (since he was out exploring when I knocked off Liu Zhang, much earlier version) who was further promoted to an A in Archery, several levels of Resilient, and Honor.
Otherwise, barring all extreme circumstances, Li Jue usually falls very quickly, though he usually has lots of Spearmen to slow down Ma Teng. Actually it's great he does that since Ma Teng cripples himself on Li Jue, allowing you to breeze right though Liangzhou.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

The trick to be able to bombard Chang An is to make sure your trebuchets have the 8% extra bombardment. Now, with the possibility of tons of experience to start (after colosseums), we may even be able to build triply promoted trebuchets, with 2 promotions for bombardment. I usually devote at least enough espionage towards Li Jue and send 2 spies there at least 10 moves before I invade.

Speaking of Stone Sentinel Maze, we should definitely build because Liu Bei likes it very much, and we've got stone when he doesn't.

 

[Kenjister]

Yeah, I always give at least 4 of my Trebs Accuracy so seiges don't last too long. But even with that, Chang An + all walls + Stone Sentinel Maze in it gives ~-100% damage from bombardment, making it totally immune to defence reduction. Chang An is a great location to build seige units though, since it gives a nice xp bonus. Though it's in the faar future, after we take on Li Jue, it's probably good to ignore the Liangzhou Factions and sweep down into Han Zhong and Yizhou before they get to a high tier of defenders. Is it just me or do each successive level of Archers get more and more powerful relative to the other units. Since all units get +3 strength on the next tier, the difference (in ratio) between them is alot lower, AND the Archers still get the +75% defence bonus. That and Liu Zhang's Guerilla trait will make him a tough nut to crack.

So what's our long term war plan anyways? Right now we absord Yuan Shu and Kong Rong. Then it seems that Xiang Yang and it's nearby cities are next. After that it's probably Yuan Shao, to eliminate the threat. Any further is all a big guess. Liu Bei falls as soon as he builds the Longzhong Plan for us. I suppose Li Jue goes next, then down into Han Zhong and Yizhou before it gets really fortified. That leaves everyone but Sun Ce, but since this is the 194 map, he's not quite the powerhouse he is in the later starts. Still, if he conquers Liu Yao anytime soon, he'll be teching far ahead of anyone else. Nowdays I've even seen him use his generals to defend the river too (S level Gan Ning + Firing Meng Chong, or whatever it's called now, is SCARY), so he might be pretty hard to take down.

 

[Xenoborg]

Dec 96:
Only switch Power to Confucianism. If we are going to be making units for another push we might as well get them their free XP.
Jan 97:
We can't take Qu Cheng yet. Moving troops up. Building several archers for defense and crossbowmen for suicides.
Feb:
Longzhong Plan is completed.
March:
We spread Unification to Chen.
April:
Meet Zhang Lu who won’t open borders with us.
We spread Unification to Guan Du.
May:
First meeting of the Imperial Court so we meet about 10 new people, most dont like us.
First vote comes up....

Hrm, a lot of our cities are already starting to get close to their happy cap and defy anger won't help that. I end up choosing “No” and hoping for the best.
We get 180 gold out of an event of a gold mine at Bei Hai.
We take Dong Cheng at the cost of a fresh crossbow.

June: Peace gets passed by a margin of 25 votes. On the plus side both Kong Rong and Yuan Shu are down to one city, and Yaun Shu is still everyone’s worst enemy getting us a lot of diplomatic bonuses.

July:
Trade Liu Zhang extra iron for rice and silk tapestry, he is far enough away him having iron won't matter to us.

August/October:
Not much. Troops reposition, buildings build.

Novemeber:
Reformed Poetry in, started on Code of Laws
TianLu Library started in Xu Chang. I am a bit worried about polluting the GP pool there, but no other cities could finish it in a reasonable amount of time.

December:
Unification spread in Bei Hai



Peace ends in 3 turns. We have a large army in the south in Shou Chun. This could be used to either finish off Yuan Shu or to attack Liu Bei.
There is another smaller group in the north that could either finish Kong Rong or attack Lie Bei.

In a few cities I had to assign a serf over a real specialist so as not to generate a GP before our first Philosopher.

Sorry for the lack of screen shots, nothing really seemed worth taking a picture of. Any advice on what I should SS in the future.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Got it. Will play after work today.
Remember this is a new mod, worthy of screenshots (even just for the novelty of the various screens). I'll try to post some (but will need to delete the first save since I'm running out of space, sigh, all the time).

 

[AnotherPacifist]

It's all farming from now on. I see some workshops south of Chen (were they built by Yuan Shu) which are somewhat useless. Also, Xu Chang needs to be improved quickly first since it cannot grow without farms (it's all plains and we're not Cao Cao with his extra food). As soon as we get a chance, I'll try to change to meritocracy and Agrarian colony, assuming we got extra money to work with. I'm starting to think maybe we should get money with the Rebellion shrine first, since Liu Bei has so obliged us with building his suicide plan so quickly, and the Longzhong Plan gives science rather than gold, and Rebellion is at a decent 16% of all cities.

Thankfully we can research Eight Diagrams next (i.e. Stone Sentinel Maze should be ours). I took a quick look with a cavalry and guess what, Liu Bei's Xia Pi is empty of troops!

 

[Kenjister]

Wow, time to blitz Liu Bei I suppose! This game is shaping up to be pretty interesting.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

1. January. Ack, Yuan Shao demands Reformed Poetry from us-->NO. (Better build some more troops in Guan Du so we don't get surprised). Code of Laws in, go for Eight Diagrams.

2. February. Guess what, Liu Bei's stack is on it's way to Yuan Shu's only city. We're going to stab him in the back. He already has Eight Diagrams, damnit.

3. March. Peace treaties expire. Sun Ce asks us to declare on Liu Yao, which we do, and OB with Sun Ce.

4. April. Disaster! Liu Zhang builds the Tianlu Library in Cheng Du! (Remind me next time why I should never choose to get blacksmiths before military advisor) The stupid Imperial Court asks Bei Hai to be returned to Kong Rong-->no! We DOW on Liu Bei.

5. May. Thankfully the vote is no, we keep Bei Hai. Pei Xian captured. Pillage iron in Liu Bei's territory.

6. June. We get horse whispering event! (need 9 stables eventually) Eight Diagrams in, switch to Jianan Literature. Pu Yang starts on Stone Sentinel Maze (5 turns) We destroy 2 catapults in Gu Yang, defeating Yu Jin.

7. July. Gu Yang captured. Lost 4 crossbows but killed 4 defenders in Xia Pi but couldn't quite capture it due to 1 catapult left.

8. August. Killed all defenders in Xia Pi (including the dreaded Danyang army) without losses. Just 2 more defenders next turn.

9. September. Xia Pi is captured with no losses. We capture Yu Jin but Liu Bei and Guan Yu both escape. We now have 25 more beakers.

10. October. Qu Yang captured. One more city to go. I also declare on Kong Rong (with 3 units) and Yuan Shu (1 unit only). Stone Sentinel Maze built in Pu Yang, switch to Military Advisor.

11. November. Jianan Literature in. Swtich Pu Yang to Chancellor Mansion (8 turns). OB with Ma Teng and Gongsun Du. Apparently Ma Teng is already at war with Li Jue. I move our troops back towards the west (now would be a good time to declare on Li Jue).

12. December. Guangling captured. We have 5 new heroes. Apparently Guan Yu has more combat experience than Lu Bu. I trade Reformed Poetry for Shipbuilding and Ancient Dictionary from Zhang Lu, who becomes cautious and OBs with us. 3 Kong Rong units killed. I see Zang Ba is rapidly trying to improve the iron and copper which Xia Pi can't access due to lack of culture. I trade for some citrus fruit and incense from Liu Biao with a cow. Made peace with Liu Yao. Set research for Household Tax System.

Future directions:
1. Unfortunately we missed out on having Jianan Literature quicker, it's a real possibility of missing the Chancellor Mansion and Royal Hunting Field. I started both but prioritized Chancellor Mansion because we need some more Great Philosophers.
DON'T SWITCH CIVICS UNTIL AT LEAST ONE OF THESE WONDERS ARE BUILT!!!!
2. I thought we were going to vassalize Zang Ba, but his culture is too bad for Xia Pi, and after Kong Rong he should die.
3. I don't think we're strong enough (economically) to take on Yuan Shao yet. We need to build some more troops for our newly captured generals to command. The best war to fight next should be Zang Ba and Li Jue (easy to just sweep west without need for worrying about defense). Liu Biao I think we can leave alone for now until Sun Ce declares on him.
4. Note that we have too many cities to switch 2 civics without 2 turns of anarchy. If the first great person we get is anything other than a Great Philosopher, use him for a golden age and switch to Meritocracy, Agrarian Colony and temporarily Mohism and Normal, and build some advocates for the non-state religions, and switch back right near the end of the GA back to Strong and Confucianism. If we ever do pop a great minister, save him for the Icy Fort (this will obviate the need for Confucianism).
5. Yuan Shao is annoyed with us. Once we conquer Kong Rong and Zang Ba, we should declare on Gongsun Zan (to appease the great Yuan Shao) and while he's busy fighting up north, we can mop up the west.
6. More courthouses! Our economy is really suffering.

Some screenies (to show off the mod):

Spoiler :

 

[Kenjister]

Nice job! Too bad about the Tian Lu library though. Liu Zhang always gets on my nerves with that supercity of his. I'll try to play a bit later today after I get my schoolwork done.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

If we do miss one of the wonders, try to reload and switch to AG at the end of my turn and see if it makes a difference. Right now it's actually not a bad time to switch civics since 3 have 3 (soon to be 5 or 6) cities in revolt.
Oh, and now that we can actually build catapults, we should build some with Corvee.

 

[Kenjister]

hmm, I'll remember that about the cats. I'll try to get Yue Jin fitted with an entire legion. Just as a note, if anyone gets to promote him, make sure to take STONG BOW! that's probably the most powerful aspect of Yue Jin's seige legion o' doom.

As for the reloading I'll try, but I don't think it'll make a huge difference since it'll only be about +5 hammers.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Patch D is out with some potential improvements for our game (like defeated hero no longer goes directly to capital). It's save game compatible (confirmed). So please download this before playing next.
http://sanguoforciv4.googlecode.com/files/HoTK_V2.4_Patch_D.exe

 

[blizzrd]

Is it just me, or did the F7 religion advisor screen get screwed up with Patch D for others too?

I started a new game for myself as Lu Bu and I can't change belief of my own accord. I was extremely lucky and Yuan Shao asked me to switch to Unification on about Turn 5, but without this I wouldn't have been able to ever take a State Religion.

Spoiler :

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Whenever you're in Indifference, you cannot switch religion (just like Liu Biao). I wonder why you're able to switch unless you've yourself switched to normal or strong. And yes, the religion screen is screwed up.