Archery

[bhavv]

One thing I find really funny is that so many people say that Archery is a useless tech and they will never tech it, but then those same people will bang on about how Horse Archer rushes are the most powerful early game military rush, so basically you never tech archery, but you rush with Horse Archers?

Trololololol.

Most maps I play I dont get copper or horses anywhere near my start location, and I have Iron instead. All the 'Archery is just terrible' people who get a location like that would simply quit the game and start / keep on starting new games until they have either copper or hroses in their capital's BFC.

Even then when they get horses, as already mentioned they pull of Horse Archer rushes and carry on claiming at the same time that Archery is the most useless tech in the game.

Trololololol x infinity.

 

[Um the Muse]

@bhavv, just about everyone admits that you eventually have to get archery. Take a look at the Horse Archer guide though as an example. You'll see that at least at some point, people considered archery for the sake of archers a waste of commerce. Commerce not spent on archery can be used for economic techs or for getting HBR+Construction faster (if you're willing to take the gamble).

By the way, opinions do differ. I've read at least one civver who insisted that they don't ever get archery--not for HA's, x-bows, or longbows.

 

[bhavv]

I've read at least one civver who insisted that they don't ever get archery--not for HA's, x-bows, or longbows.

And when they get a start without copper or horses they fail and need to start a new map.

 

[Nick Carpathia]

And when they get a start without copper or horses they fail and need to start a new map.

Sure, that kills me all the time on immortal . Only way for me to compete with AI advantages though.

Still better than re-rolling a hundred Marahuge Wet Corn/Floodplains/Gold maps with close-enough starts to quechua rush.

 

[bhavv]

Sure, that kills me all the time on immortal . Only way for me to compete with AI advantages though.

Erm, no its not. You can use Archers to defend. You werent killed off by the 'AI advantages' in such a scenario, you will have been killed off by barbs

And I also get killed off by barbs a lot on Immortal, and almost always on Diety because for me theres never any horses or copper in my BFC and I'm following the terrible advice on this forum to skip archery and go for copper / horses instead.

I hear so many people on this forum talking all the time about 'reliable strategies', well I can tell you for sure that reliance on copper or horses in your capital's BFC is most definitely not a reliable strategy, because it happens on fewer than 1 in 5 maps.

Building the oracle on Immortal / Diety is far more reliable than copper and horses are. Archers on the other hand would be 100% reliable on every map and in every game you play, because they dont need any resources.

 

[Nick Carpathia]

Well, not so much actually die, but get so crippled by barbarian chokes that I ragequit.

And you don't need strategic resources in your BFC per se, just close enough for a 2nd or 3rd city, which should be enough time before tough barbs start showing up. Archers aren't great at attacking fortified warriors in cities.

But yeah, the reason why I neglect Hunting-Archery is the same reason I usually skip Mysticism-Religion, so that I can get BW and Pottery up sooner and start expanding my economy, as that's the only way I can compete with AI advantages.

 

[bhavv]

You need to try some raging barbarian Immortal and Diety games.

You have to tech Archery first, and Hunting suddenly becomes the most powerful starting tech in the game.

People falsely rely on horses or copper as a desperate crutch. When you have to continually restart your game because you didnt have close enough copper or horses, that right there is showing that your strategy is absolutely not reliable.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Barbs are defeated by screwing up their spawning possibilities, not by using strategic resource units. Most immortal and even quite a few deity maps you don't need strategic resources to make barbs an afterthought; you just need a few well placed units of any sort. Check out my playthrough of immortal university 78 or hell MOST playthroughs I have on youtube (excepting that one game where the barbs took a city on consecutive 3% odds wins). In the vast majority of games, they're not even able to pillage a tile let alone threaten anything material. My Justinian game way back when is probably the best example: LOTS of unexplored land, no immediate access to copper or horse, no archery, no barb problems. Just warriors to bust spawns and channel the barbs that do spawn towards AI instead of me.

Early AI DoW is a good reason to get archery though. Sometimes they hit early and if you don't have that strat resource hooked up you're dead. That's not a fun situation and archers are not a pricey unit.

 

[Htadus]

I too am one who does not self tech Archary. I mainly play xOTM's so I rely upon fog busting and anti barb spawning units more than any other technique since I have exactly 1 chance to get it right. I also settle my second city very early and oftern get access to the strat resource; copper mostly but sometimes horses if the capital had AH resources.

I will however trade for archary once my cities have MP warriors and I am ready to build spears/axes instead of just warriors. I have lost 3 deity xotm to barbs when 1- 2barb warriors kill my single defending warriror with some excellent odds. I suppose 2 warriors can kill 1 with good RNG. However, that is no big deal since I am not a fan of Deity. And when if i do survive the barbs, I manage to piss off Monti/JC and Gandhi with my constant deniel of requests. So as you can guess, barbs just save me time from being wasted

 

[bhavv]

Well there was this one time where I teched Archery first and conquered Genghis Khan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8YmWFyDryM

Protective archers promoted with Cover can capture cities. Its even better with Mali.

Gilgamesh is awesome too. No copper for Vultures? Try for horses. No horses? Restart map and archer rush instead.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Restart map and

Lol. A lot of civs do better under this scenario .

 

[bhavv]

Lol. A lot of civs do better under this scenario .

Ok ok, ignore trying for horses. Go BW, no copper? > Archery. Chop chop chop, loads of archers, rush.

Simple as that.

Its a lot harder to Archer rush with non Pro civs as you cant pop out cover archers.

Would be good with Toku too, Agg Axes, or fall back on Pro Archers.

Barbs are defeated by screwing up their spawning possibilities, not by using strategic resource units. ....Just warriors to bust spawns and channel the barbs that do spawn towards AI instead of me.

I cant agree with this. Barb archers 'reliably' kill my forest fortified fogbusting warriors, and manage to capure my cities garissoned with warriors far too often.

You are however right that you dont need strat resource units for barb defense, because Archers, Quechas, Dogs or Holkans all work.

 

[Um the Muse]

Well there was this one time where I teched Archery first and conquered Genghis Khan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8YmWFyDryM

Protective archers promoted with Cover can capture cities. Its even better with Mali.

Gilgamesh is awesome too. No copper for Vultures? Try for horses. No horses? Restart map and archer rush instead.

I just watched the video (and left a couple of comments). Impressive. Considering how easy that was for you, maybe you should always archer rush instead of looking around for copper or horses.

 

[bhavv]

Ive archer rushed on several maps with giggles, just did it back when it was topic here with all the usual Deity elite players going 'Lol Archery, lol Archers, LOLOLOLOL Archer rush, hahahaha, nonononono etc etc etc ....'.

So I did it. It works. These Deity players on this forum are beyond bad at this game, all they do is literally copy each other, and each others opinions without even once trying for themselves what they claim to be a bad way of playing the game.

When I try all these 'bad ways' of playing the game, according to the Deity elite club members, they actually work? They work so much better than I was told they would? Sure because I'm on Immortal I suppose.

Also hunting as a starting tech is meant to be absolutely terrible .... Yea thanks, I'll have that on any Pro leader please. Oh wait, Burger King haz that and Mysticism .... A new challenge? Polytheism and Archery first, will it work? I'll try it but not right now.

 

[Manco Capac]

Ive archer rushed on several maps with giggles, just did it back when it was topic here with all the usual Deity elite players going 'Lol Archery, lol Archers, LOLOLOLOL Archer rush, hahahaha, nonononono etc etc etc ....'.

So I did it. It works. These Deity players on this forum are beyond bad at this game, all they do is literally copy each other, and each others opinions without even once trying for themselves what they claim to be a bad way of playing the game.

When I try all these 'bad ways' of playing the game, according to the Deity elite club members, they actually work? They work so much better than I was told they would? Sure because I'm on Immortal I suppose.

Also hunting as a starting tech is meant to be absolutely terrible .... Yea thanks, I'll have that on any Pro leader please. Oh wait, Burger King haz that and Mysticism .... A new challenge? Polytheism and Archery first, will it work? I'll try it but not right now.

Sheesh. Stop mocking one aspect of someone's ability. Early rush is not the whole that makes someone skilled or not. Once I entered S&T subforum, I quickly realized my own skill after seeing someone having twice my tech rate around the same date. And what about those "deity players", I don't recall many commented this thread and b*tched others. But I tend to agree there is a "virtual" deity club...that is not always friendly.

First, the sample you provided is not good to proove a stack of archers rules.
You target deity level, but put and IMM- example of an archer rush. Second, it looked like the second archer had luck against Genghis. Third, one archer in capital...being someone who likes early rushes, I don't recall many cases of one archer in capital. Especially the second who mysteriously vanish elsewere when a SoD arrives. No urgent whipping by AI; no slavery for Genghis.

But I admit a SoD can squeeze the AI quite strongly to thwart his/her expansion. But you are stunting yourself too by building archers if city capture is failing...and this let more land grab to your other neighbours.

I also admit Hunting is not the end of the world sometimes. The early scout, if he survived the animal period can still be of use for forbusting or slow exploration 1 move at a time on open lands and his survival time almost increases to infinity (if careful).

Feel free to throw carborane superacid onto me, but I reply in the same manner you presented your opinion.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

But I tend to agree there is a "virtual" deity club...that is not always friendly.

. Well, at least it's not success that got to my head. No, I was always this much of a pain even at monarch and below .

I'm definitely in that club though, possibly forever. Deity is such a pain. I've won every VC there except time, with and without permanent alliances, but most of the time I win on deity it's by noobing up the diplo situation so nobody comes after me then sitting on culture wins . USUALLY, late 1700's or early 1800's is good enough there.

The real deity elite club members win deity with fair consistency, and a good majority of them don't post here anymore. The situations where they'll pursue an early religion on any difficulty are very rare indeed though, as I've read most of the high level games posted here.

 

[Manco Capac]

. Well, at least it's not success that got to my head. No, I was always this much of a pain even at monarch and below .

The real deity elite club members win deity with fair consistency, and a good majority of them don't post here anymore. The situations where they'll pursue an early religion on any difficulty are very rare indeed though, as I've read most of the high level games posted here.

But you bring strong arguments at least! Not flat out fallacies. That is why I revels in contracting you just once...because it's quite hard to keep arguing with you.

Yeah, the core of the strongest of the strongs is vanished by time. I think CIV popularity is vanishing too...as the game grows quite old.

Religion early is quite Charlie+Settler first.

And plox take my challenge, phil! You like so much Toku, I know it...
I prefer flat out refusals than tergiversations. That's my motto.

 

[vranasm]

Third, one archer in capital...being someone who likes early rushes, I don't recall many cases of one archer in capital. Especially the second who mysteriously vanish elsewere when a SoD arrives. No urgent whipping by AI; no slavery for Genghis.

this one reminds me of yesterdays turnset in one of the SG's where churchill had 2 longbows and 4 other defending units in city + 3 cats nearby with me having 20+stack next to the city...

first he sacrifices the 3 cats right away, I bombard with some reinforcement

next turn 4 units move out and he leaves there only 2 longbows... well sacrificing 4 vultures finishing with 2 WE's was very good option for me how to get city :-D

few turns later he launches big counterattack with 2 cats + 4 units on the same target city...

warfare can be sometimes really fun :-D, but I think having 3 good armies on the push helped a bit with the confusion.

 

[bhavv]

Sheesh. Stop mocking one aspect of someone's ability. Early rush is not the whole that makes someone skilled or not. Once I entered S&T subforum, I quickly realized my own skill after seeing someone having twice my tech rate around the same date. And what about those "deity players", I don't recall many commented this thread and b*tched others. But I tend to agree there is a "virtual" deity club...that is not always friendly.

First, the sample you provided is not good to proove a stack of archers rules.
You target deity level, but put and IMM- example of an archer rush. Second, it looked like the second archer had luck against Genghis. Third, one archer in capital...being someone who likes early rushes, I don't recall many cases of one archer in capital. Especially the second who mysteriously vanish elsewere when a SoD arrives. No urgent whipping by AI; no slavery for Genghis.

But I admit a SoD can squeeze the AI quite strongly to thwart his/her expansion. But you are stunting yourself too by building archers if city capture is failing...and this let more land grab to your other neighbours.

I also admit Hunting is not the end of the world sometimes. The early scout, if he survived the animal period can still be of use for forbusting or slow exploration 1 move at a time on open lands and his survival time almost increases to infinity (if careful).

Feel free to throw carborane superacid onto me, but I reply in the same manner you presented your opinion.

But just about everything I write is aimed at Immortal level, and I never claim otherwise. I get mocked and attacked in any thread by deity level players where I'm posting and discussing immortal games, usually because whatever I'm posting won't work on Deiry. But I never said it would. Deity in Civ IV is ridiculously unenjoyable to me, I don't get why I or anyone else here cannot discuss gameplay at Immortal level or less without being mocked by deity players, I didn't realize that this forum was a 'Deity level players only' place.

Regarding the single archer capital, I was stumped by that too. I played the map three tikes, did two successful rushes against a stronger defended capital, and then when I try to record the third I get a single archer only? However Protective cover archers vs regular archers is almost as strong as quecha rushing is, you just need to work a little harder on copper denial.

 

[diagonale]

Here I notice two fact. First despite heavy provocation from bhavv no so-called deity elite reacted. Second, TheMeInTeam and Tachywaxon said that no deity elite is posting here. The conclusion is clear: there's no such thing as a deity elite crew.

Instead, there may be kids claiming to beat deity despite their obvious low strategical level. The problem with kids is that they are very bored those days; They have a good excuse for that: we are living boring times. Anyway, once someone lies about his/her own capabilities (s)he logically copy/paste three/four advices (s)he can found and call it a strategy. That is, to trick people who don't realize it's a fake. Because of their lack of experience in life some kids tend to not tolerate contradiction and to impose themselves by mocking others ways of thinking. I think it explains pretty well the "deity elite club illusion".

Some of the better strategists who played civ didn't ever posted on this forum;but some Defendo and Attacko papers got copied around. There's also a few dedicated posters that show impressive skills here. Hint: none of them ordered to never found a religion. Civvers who talk about strategy? I'm sleeping. Strategists who talk about civ? I'm learning.