Archery

[Manco Capac]

Warriors (+25% city defense) against warriors. Ok rush 3 warriors per warrior defending.
Archers (+50% city defense and hill bonuses occasionally) against archers. Hard to tell because said one gets an additional +25% defence compared to warrior.

I think TMIT had rushed somewhere on IMM with a huge bunch of warriors (>10) against Ragnar, but that doesn't change the fact it is gambling on at least wounding the unit to get better odds.
And pretty sure that was somehow a waste of ressource. Pyrrhic Victory?

 

[bhavv]

Warriors (+25% city defense) against warriors. Ok rush 3 warriors per warrior defending.
Archers (+50% city defense and hill bonuses occasionally) against archers. Hard to tell because said one gets an additional +25% defence compared to warrior.

Thats why it only works with Pro leaders because you get cover archers, and no it never works against hill cities or protective defenders, use some common sense at least!

Defending archers bonus is reduced to 25% by your cover promoted archers, so 3 archers per defending archer (non Pro, non hill city) should work reliably for Pro leaders.

When you tried an archer rush, I'll take it you were playing a non Pro leader? Because then why even bother? Even I wouldnt waste time trying that, you need the cover promotion to make it work, and you get that with Pro + Barracks.

 

[Htadus]

Why would I bother with an early rush on a map where I have time and space to expand all around my capital, as opposed to a map where two AIs second cities were placed right next to my Capital's borders?
So without directly saying archer rush is not a good thing in general, you are qualifying special circumstances when it is good?
Also why would I bother with a leader that is not appropriate to doing an archer rush (Non pro, or pro leaders with better options like dogs / vultures)? And you complain that my random generated locked modified assets map is cooked, but a forum game isnt?

I never said a forum game is not cooked. The best cooked are Noble club and I think it is great. FYI, when I do play Noble club, I use Buffy and Locked Modified Assets. Nothing stops you when the WB save is available, just dont pay too much attention to the AI's or land nearby when adding techs to Barbs and loading the game. After all you are in charge of your honesty.

As for claiming the your map is cooked, when you know you can rush an AI form the biginning of the game, that is cooked.

I am surprised that you did not choose Mansa for this.

I just have done an archer rush against a single archer on Warlord difficulty (G-Minor 145). 2 Archers, 1 warrior and a chariot...didn't even scratch the said archer. So, archer rushing is gambling for me.

I did this a looong time ago in some gotm and was lucky killing the only archer in the capital but the remining units died to the remaining 2 warriors. I lost something like 7 or 8 archers for nothing. At the end I remember having 2 nearly dead archers and on the next turn found the city defended by a new warrior and a promoted surviving warrior. it is just normal RNG doing what it was supposed to do.

I recall cussing the hell out of whoever suggested it during pregame discussion and being mad at myself for trying a new strat during a gotm. It is a weak risk. I tested it out several times and deemed too weak to use as a normal strat. I am sure I am not alone in this.

 

[Manco Capac]

Thats why it only works with Pro leaders because you get cover archers, and no it never works against hill cities or protective defenders, use some common sense at least!

Defending archers bonus is reduced to 25% by your cover promoted archers, so 3 archers per defending archer (non Pro, non hill city) should work reliably for Pro leaders.

When you tried an archer rush, I'll take it you were playing a non Pro leader? Because then why even bother? Even I wouldnt waste time trying that, you need the cover promotion to make it work, and you get that with Pro + Barracks.

He he. Yeah. I admit I don't do many archer rushes.
And I admit I didn't have a protective civ with cover promo (from first strike a pre-req).

Ok, I admit my logic gap on this aspect.

BTW, no need to see me as a foe; I'm a HoF player too. Peace.

 

[bhavv]

I am surprised that you did not choose Mansa for this.

Why would I have bothered with that when I was trying to achieve a Machinery bulb + Chu ko nu rush?

Having said that, machinery bulbing is a terrible strategy to rely on, it rarely ever works unless you dont build the Oracle (hello Great Prophets), in which case bulbing both MC + Machinery is going to take far too long.

What would be the point in proving that Mansa can rush with Skirmishers? This is pretty much an already proven fact / widely accepted strategy that lots of people are capable of doing. That would be like playing as Darius and carrying out a successful Immortal rush, and then making a thread saying 'Look, I just did an Immortal rush, proof that Immortal rushes can work!', when everyone already knows they work.

When other people here try to execute Archer rushes, they seem to be using ordinary non pro archers and wondering why they fail so much. Try it again with a Pro civ, and dont completely ignore your common sense and think that it can work on hill cities or against other Pro civs because it wont.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Every forum game without this option enabled allows the uploader of the game to purposefully cheat the map either in favor of the player or the AI, or for people participating to simply use the WB.

You act as if lock modified assets prevents cheating. It does not. It prevent flagrant worldbuilder edits, but rng manipulation is still alive and well and difficult to prove that someone did it.

Having said that, machinery bulbing is a terrible strategy to rely on, it rarely ever works unless you dont build the Oracle (hello Great Prophets), in which case bulbing both MC + Machinery is going to take far too long.

?

People get engineering by 500 BC as long as you don't start with fishing (china does not). Just research/trade alpha/math/aesthetics/metal casting and bulb machinery. It should be even faster because you can use first GS on academy even without philosophical since you aren't bulbing engineering (it also removes the need to come up with construction).

Try it again with a Pro civ, and dont completely ignore your common sense and think that it can work on hill cities or against other Pro civs because it wont.

It is extremely unlikely to work under those cases. However, it has a very high chance of failure in general. I don't care if you have drill I cover, you're still going to be attacking a 40% defense city with archers getting minimum 75% defenses on top of that. It's 3 and a first strike chance vs ~6, IF you have cover.

All it takes is one extra AI archer past what you expected and you're toast...and the AI can easily build/overflow/whip them 1/turn. Even with protective against no enemy traits you're talking about a sub-coin flip odds strategy...unless you play marathon.

 

[bhavv]

People get engineering by 500 BC as long as you don't start with fishing (china does not). Just research/trade alpha/math/aesthetics/metal casting and bulb machinery. It should be even faster because you can use first GS on academy even without philosophical since you aren't bulbing engineering (it also removes the need to come up with construction).

Sure, because researching / trading all of that without building the Oracle is 100% reliable by 500 BC in every single Immortal / Deity level game, and building the oracle and not getting Great Prophets is even more reliable! ... (Actually that was sarcasm, this is NOT a reliable tactic).

People rush with Archers and capture cities, this is also proven by my screenshots (any slightly more competent player such as yourself could easily do it a lot better).

So what exactly is your reason for picking and choosing one unreliable strategy over any other for defending as being better, because 500 BC Machinery / Engineering bulbs are most definitely far from reliable.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Sure, because researching / trading all of that without building the Oracle is 100% reliable by 500 BC in every single Immortal / Deity level game

It's pretty close to 100% to bulb machinery without oracle by 500 BC on immortal/deity in situations where you'd actually want to rush with xbows or CKN. The only limiting factor is nobody to trade with, but that's generally not a situation that lends itself well to a CKN rush...and best of all you can use a standard opener and not commit to it for dozens of turns, unlike the oracle.

So what exactly is your reason for picking and choosing one unreliably strategy over any other for defending as being better

Because some strategies are 3, 4, or even more times likely to succeed.

500 BC Machinery / Engineering bulbs are most definitely far from reliable.

I can play pretend too, but that wouldn't really help the discussion.

 

[Htadus]

Why would I have bothered with that when I was trying to achieve a Machinery bulb + Chu ko nu rush?

Having said that, machinery bulbing is a terrible strategy to rely on, it rarely ever works unless you dont build the Oracle (hello Great Prophets), in which case bulbing both MC + Machinery is going to take far too long.
Actually that need be so. Me and another player just did exactly that in the current Immortal university game. All it took was another city building a library early and constantly runing 2 scientists. I had all the intention of bulbing both Machinary and Engineering except, screwed up by trading for fishing after bulbing machinary. No GP's yet.

When other people here try to execute Archer rushes, they seem to be using ordinary non pro archers and wondering why they fail so much. Try it again with a Pro civ, and dont completely ignore your common sense and think that it can work on hill cities or against other Pro civs because it wont.

The problem with the archer rush is that it in essense ignore common sense by commiting to a strat that is more risk than assured reward. This is what I call HOF style strat where you can say oh well that did not work...let me see with the next start. That is the first of many levels of HOF cheese.

Having said that, if i had more free time available , I too would play more HoF games. it is Civ after all.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

So what exactly is your reason for picking and choosing one unreliable strategy over any other for defending as being better, because 500 BC Machinery / Engineering bulbs are most definitely far from reliable.

When did Machinery, and Engineering bulb rushes become unreliable on Immortal? With decent land I can do it every single game. It is extremely easy to do with 4-5 cities. Another thing that is easy to get way before 500 BC. With good land ANYTHING can be done. Any stupid tactic with enough luck, and enough good land works on Immortal.

 

[bhavv]

The problem with the archer rush is that it in essense ignore common sense by commiting to a strat that is more risk than assured reward. This is what I call HOF style strat where you can say oh well that did not work...let me see with the next start. That is the first of many levels of HOF cheese.

Having said that, if i had more free time available , I too would play more HoF games. it is Civ after all.

The same applies to any rush. When it works the risk taken is often worth it. Just about every kind of rush is easily thwarted by enemy cities on hills / pro leaders, or copper in the enemy capital's BFC.

When did Machinery, and Engineering bulb rushes become unreliable on Immortal?

Since I tried to oracle MC and ended up with Great Prophets /doh.

I'll have to try it again without Oracle then.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

The same applies to any rush. When it works the risk taken is often worth it. Just about every kind of rush is easily thwarted by enemy cities on hills / pro leaders, or copper in the enemy capital's BFC.



Since I tried to oracle MC and ended up with Great Prophets /doh.

I'll have to try it again without Oracle then.

If you use the Oracle I have found that CoL is much better for Caste to run 4-5 Scientists in a good food city. That will get you your 2 GS quickly enough to rush with Xbows.

 

[Htadus]

The same applies to any rush. When it works the risk taken is often worth it. Just about every kind of rush is easily thwarted by enemy cities on hills / pro leaders, or copper in the enemy capital's BFC.

Can you really place axe versus archer and archer vs archer on equal footing?

The math and collective experience does not add up. Axe rush is not a real risk what so ever. From exerience I say that I have yet to fail to capture first 2-3 cities with 2 to 1 ratio axes. And since it is a rush, there are no more cities to capture after the second city in most cases. And that is as far away as 10-12 tiles from the capital.

 

[bhavv]

Can you really place axe versus archer and archer vs archer on equal footing?

Axes require copper. On the majority of maps you will not start with any copper (nor horses). Pro archers however compare much closer to Quechas, and are almost as likely to succeed, they just take slightly longer to acquire, but the rush can still be executed before the AI connects any metal.

I think I have VERY CLEARLY explained enough times that archer rushes are not dependent on resource gambles. I have also VERY CLEARLY explained enough times that no, archers do not compare to the strength of other units for rushes.

But Pro archers promoted with cover are a valid gamble. Why dont you apply some common sense, you are very irrational in your responses and you cant even read or try to comprehend all of the information I have already written.

You seem to be obsessed with the 'A is more powerful than B therefore B must be useless' mentality, even when being shown valid evidence that B can still work in situations WHERE A IS NOT POSSIBLE on a map specific basis.

 

[Htadus]

Oooops, I am sorry, I do not follow you about. So no I have not read all you have written. And I am glad to say I have no intension either. I am glad you used the bold capital text so in the future it will remind you of all the things you have said in the past.

Enjoy archer rushing.

 

[bhavv]

Everything was clearly explained in this very thread, theres no need to 'follow my posts about', all you had to do was read what is written in this one thread.

I especially liked the part where even after I have said many times, and demonstrated in each of my cases that 'Archer rushing is a valid tactic for PROTECTIVE leaders, using COVER promoted archers (I.E. using a barracks), you gave me an example to attempt the same in a forum game where the leader chosen is PACAL (ignoring for now that the AI were given CGIII archers to prevent rushing in that game).

Now why the absolute heck would I ever want to rush with Archers when I am playing as Pacal? I get immediate access to 4 Str Holkans with just BW + Hunting, meaning that I dont even have to tech Archery to pull off an even more powerful, and far more likely to succeed rush in a normal random generated game. (Not a forum game where the AI is cheated to be made rush proof). And I'm not even Protective, meaning as I have already explained, the rush will have no chance of success without direct access to the cover promotion for my Archers.

This shows so very clearly, that you cant even read or try to understand any of the logic being given to you, you simply dismiss any strategy even if its proven to work because you think its bad, and in your dismissal try to use completely illogical situations where you already have far superior strategies available anyway like Holkan rushing.

This is what I call HOF style strat where you can say oh well that did not work...let me see with the next start. That is the first of many levels of HOF cheese.

Ok, lets try and re-school your method of logic. Lets look at it this way:

1) I start right next to an AI and want to do an Axeman rush.
2) I open with teching BW. This reveals no copper, and no nearby copper that I can settle
3) My Civ has Protective as one of its traits.
4) My options in this game are:
a) Restart the map, I haz no copper so its the end of the world oh noes!
b) After researching BW, tech Hunting > Archery and attempt a Cover promoted archer rush instead.

Attempting b) first instead of just rage quitting like in a) gives me a decent shot at recovering from such a start. If it fails, then I do what I would have done anyway, and simply restart the map.

 

[K.Murx]

Lets look at it this way:
4) My options in this game are:
a) Restart the map, I haz no copper so its the end of the world oh noes!
b) After researching BW, tech Hunting > Archery and attempt a Cover promoted archer rush instead.

c) Beeline construction and go archers/catapults?
Far more likely to succeed, in my experience, and easily doable with about 3 cities (on Emperor, at least). Better hammer ratio, and much smaller variance.

 

[vranasm]

I don't use Oracle for machinery bulb

you can bulb MC and Machinery, you then only need aesthetics (which you get almost every game for trade bait), backtrade for alphabet (another fool proof way of playing), IW etc

the only problem is Math

i did this already couple of times with different leaders even on emperor (which is tougher since you gamble on AI alpha)

it's totally safe strategy and foolproof, another problem being availability of Iron

If we were to talk about engineering bulbs...well then yeah you would have a point...

edit:

just for the record, you use great scientists for this bulbs...

 

[shakabrade]

Bhavv was right all along!!! We just use same old strategies and are afraid of thinking outside of the box. So I tried longbowman rush on DEITY. I rolled this typical map with Quin (Ind, Pro). I took Protective like Bhavv said. Oracled Feudalism 1760BC, then teched archery and BW for chops. Oracling feudalism doesn't like settling other cities so I had only one. Switched to vassalage and serfdom for faster chops, teched maths with this typical start and prepared an army of level 3 protective LBs. Turned barbs off since we already turn huts and events off so this is only logical. I'll stop blabling and let you see some awesome pics!!!

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

The only logical play with normal start like this and when you have a neigbour and no access to strat resources or still don't have techs necessary to reveal them is that you just have to rush him with archers, and I say with LBs. You can see how I built 55 LBs and lost 43 but Zara lost 102 units and he had many hill cities. 55 LBs are worth only 2750 which translates to 27.5 Settlers or 45.83 workers. So you can easly see that by sacrificing 27 settlers I gained 8 cities. Awesome!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

. The best part is that you can probably win from that.