Archmage Cap

[PPQ_Purple]

What units count toward the Archmage cap?
I have 1 Hemah (probably counts), 1 Archmage (counts), 1 Vampire Lord (does he count?). And I can not upgrade further units to archmages.
Eather way, I should have 1 or 2 slots open. But I seem to have none.
Can anyone explain this to me?

 

[Vehem]

What units count toward the Archmage cap?
I have 1 Hemah (probably counts), 1 Archmage (counts), 1 Vampire Lord (does he count?). And I can not upgrade further units to archmages.
Eather way, I should have 1 or 2 slots open. But I seem to have none.
Can anyone explain this to me?

Archmages count. That's it.

Need Reagents, possibly still access to a Mage Guild (got a feeling that one was removed or readded recently), to be in your own territory, to be Level 6 and to have enough gold.

 

[WarKirby]

Archmages count.

nothing else
Vampire lords are immortals. Hemah is a hero, neither of them count. nor do liches, or high priests.

The only thing that counts towards your archmage cap, is units you upgraded from a second level spellcaster.


Also, while we're on this topic, I blieve Kahdi and Amurites should have a higher archmage cap than other civs. maybe 6 or 8

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I see, I seem to have lost my suply of reagents and did not notice.
Thanks for that.

But I agree on the higher arch-mage cap.
But for the Khadi, I think the required level should be 7 or 8 to become an arch mage, not 6.

 

[WarKirby]

I see, I seem to have lost my suply of reagents and did not notice.
Thanks for that.

But I agree on the higher arch-mage cap.
But for the Khadi, I think the required level should be 7 or 8 to become an arch mage, not 6.

The required level is 5.
One of the main neat things about khadi is that their mages upgrade sooner.

Why would you want to make a magic oriented race LESS good at using magic?

 

[Opera]

I think 8 would be a bit much. 6 could do... But why increasing their numbers? You could also make them a bit more powerful. Or do both

 

[WarKirby]

But why increasing their numbers?

Because there are 21 spellspheres, or more perhaps. so 21 lv3 spells. with only 4 archmages, you can only use 4 at a time (or 8 with my tweak to twincast availability ). then there's the matter of learning them. Each archmage on average will get 2-4 spheres up to lv3, if he concentrates mostly on that. With their low combat strength, they're not good at fighting, and the Combat promos are the only direct combat line they can learn, so archmages generally have issues getting xp.

4 just isn't enough to achieve total arcane mastery. Of course, I have no problem with that being out of the reach for orcs and the like, but it's kind of what the amurites are all about.

 

[Opera]

There is a good number of options then, not at all mutually exclusive:
- Increasing the XP rate of Archmage (In fact, increasing it for each level of Arcane line, so that Mage learn faster than Adepts and Archmages learn faster than Mage);
- Increasing the number of free promotions gained upon upgrade (adept: 1, mage: 2, archmage: 3?);
- Increasing the number of Archmages buildable;
- Increasing the fighting capacity of the Archmages (UUs are good for that, and Arcane-only equipment too! Building buildable with a Great Sage and voila! ).

Of course, I'm not throwing these ideas for all civs. Well, except maybe the equipment part. I love equipment! (And I'll add magic equipment for my gnolls )

 

[Vehem]

you can only use 4 at a time (or 8 with my tweak to twincast availability )

*cough*Which-may-have-already-been-stolen-for-the-main-mod*cough*

 

[Valkrionn]

lol That was actually one tweak that I didn't much care for.... I'd rather make divine an alternative to Arcane, and keep it Hero only. But that's mostly because it's always been for heroes .

 

[civ_king]

There is a good number of options then, not at all mutually exclusive:
- Increasing the XP rate of Archmage (In fact, increasing it for each level of Arcane line, so that Mage learn faster than Adepts and Archmages learn faster than Mage);
- Increasing the number of free promotions gained upon upgrade (adept: 1, mage: 2, archmage: 3?);
- Increasing the number of Archmages buildable;
- Increasing the fighting capacity of the Archmages (UUs are good for that, and Arcane-only equipment too! Building buildable with a Great Sage and voila! ).

Of course, I'm not throwing these ideas for all civs. Well, except maybe the equipment part. I love equipment! (And I'll add magic equipment for my gnolls )

What I have Italic'ed I support, and they should have a higher xp cap too, maybe 150?
or even no limit, provided they are in a city with mages guild (however Khadi and Amurites should be like 225), max limit 5 (Khadi and Amurites 8), cool Arcane-only equipment (naturally better versions for K/A)

maybe spell promotions that give combat bonuses (generally Tier III only), like Earth III giving an extra defense point/Fire III extra attack point/Entropy III giving withered on combat to opposing tile (25% chance per unit)/Mind III giving +0.50xp per combat and other sweet things like those to promote specialization...

 

[xienwolf]

I would say add a SECOND one which is Hero only (and both Arcane and Divine available). You all do realize that when I made it so you can cast seperate spells I also made Twincast effects stack, right? You could make a Hero only, a standard, an Item, and a Amurite/Khad racial bonus each provide twincast so that an Amurite Hemah with the nifty item can cast 4 spells each turn.

Heck, you could even make a Spell Extension III which requires level 15 and provides a 5th Twincast option just for kicks

 

[Valkrionn]

I would say add a SECOND one which is Hero only (and both Arcane and Divine available). You all do realize that when I made it so you can cast seperate spells I also made Twincast effects stack, right? You could make a Hero only, a standard, an Item, and a Amurite/Khad racial bonus each provide twincast so that an Amurite Hemah with the nifty item can cast 4 spells each turn.

Heck, you could even make a Spell Extension III which requires level 15 and provides a 5th Twincast option just for kicks

Ooooh.... I did not know that lol. I might have to include that now.......

 

[Vehem]

I would say add a SECOND one which is Hero only (and both Arcane and Divine available). You all do realize that when I made it so you can cast seperate spells I also made Twincast effects stack, right? You could make a Hero only, a standard, an Item, and a Amurite/Khad racial bonus each provide twincast so that an Amurite Hemah with the nifty item can cast 4 spells each turn.

Heck, you could even make a Spell Extension III which requires level 15 and provides a 5th Twincast option just for kicks

I did actually have a Twincast II in place at level 15 until about 2 minutes before committing it - then decided against it for the time being. For the moment though it seems fair to just allow the high level units access. I'm already a little concerned about the Lich/Archmage mega Wraith summoning stack of doom - but I guess if you can pull that off, you deserve the win...

 

[Onionsoilder]

I do wish there was a way to make different kinds of units count toward the archmage cap... Even if you can pull it off, it still doesn't seem fair to me. Maybe instead of having a unit cap, there could be some sort of penalty for overloading on Arcane units. For example, say an average civilization had an cap of 12. Amurites have an cap of 16, and Khadi have a cap of 18. Certain buildings or wonders can be built that raise this cap as well, alloing more units. Each powerful unit has an arcane cost. Powerful units like Archmages, Liches and High Priests have a cost of 4. Hero units like Henna or Govannon cost 6. Weaker units that are still powerful spellcasters, like Vampire Lords, cost 2.

How this would work is all these units that now cost magic points will no longer have a unit limit, I.E., a normal civilization could have either 3 Archmages or 3 Liches or 2 Archmages and 1 Lich, etc., without going over the cap. It is possible to go over the cap, however doing so carries a penalty.

Going 1-3 points over the limit causes slight magical turbulence within your empire, slowing down the speed at which spellcasters autogain EXP(About 70% of normal).

Going 4-7 points over the limit causes more turbulence, slowing it down even further(around 30%) and causes various things to happen such as random(negative) promotions being given to your units, plots losing food or hammers, unhappiness or unhealth in your cities, etc.

Going 8 or more points over the limit causes extreme turbulence, bringing EXP autogain to a halt, causing random building destruction and population loss in your cities, savage elementals spawning randomly in your borders, units randomly losing health or being killed, mana nodes being destroyed and mana changing it's type, etc.

Using this system, an average civilization could create 3 of these powerful units to start. Various buildings and national wonders can boost the cost cap by of 8, allowing another 2 units for a total of 5 for every civilization. One or two World Wonders can boost this an additional 6 points, allowing a total of 6 units(or 7 units going only slightly over the cap, with the only negative effect being reduced EXP gain). Amurites and Khadi would be able to build 1 more unit then this, for a total of 7(or 8 with only the EXP penalty)

 

[cIV_khanh93]

I do wish there was a way to make different kinds of units count toward the archmage cap... Even if you can pull it off, it still doesn't seem fair to me. Maybe instead of having a unit cap, there could be some sort of penalty for overloading on Arcane units. For example, say an average civilization had an cap of 12. Amurites have an cap of 16, and Khadi have a cap of 18. Certain buildings or wonders can be built that raise this cap as well, alloing more units. Each powerful unit has an arcane cost. Powerful units like Archmages, Liches and High Priests have a cost of 4. Hero units like Henna or Govannon cost 6. Weaker units that are still powerful spellcasters, like Vampire Lords, cost 2.

How this would work is all these units that now cost magic points will no longer have a unit limit, I.E., a normal civilization could have either 3 Archmages or 3 Liches or 2 Archmages and 1 Lich, etc., without going over the cap. It is possible to go over the cap, however doing so carries a penalty.

Going 1-3 points over the limit causes slight magical turbulence within your empire, slowing down the speed at which spellcasters autogain EXP(About 70% of normal).

Going 4-7 points over the limit causes more turbulence, slowing it down even further(around 30%) and causes various things to happen such as random(negative) promotions being given to your units, plots losing food or hammers, unhappiness or unhealth in your cities, etc.

Going 8 or more points over the limit causes extreme turbulence, bringing EXP autogain to a halt, causing random building destruction and population loss in your cities, savage elementals spawning randomly in your borders, units randomly losing health or being killed, mana nodes being destroyed and mana changing it's type, etc.

Using this system, an average civilization could create 3 of these powerful units to start. Various buildings and national wonders can boost the cost cap by of 8, allowing another 2 units for a total of 5 for every civilization. One or two World Wonders can boost this an additional 6 points, allowing a total of 6 units(or 7 units going only slightly over the cap, with the only negative effect being reduced EXP gain). Amurites and Khadi would be able to build 1 more unit then this, for a total of 7(or 8 with only the EXP penalty)

or we could have a hard cap on how many of the highest level units you can have at one time...

 

[zup]

Or we could just get rid of all limits (including in direct damage spells) for some insane ownage.

But I am a guy who wants his magi to take on the entire world...and win.

 

[xienwolf]

You could link the number of total Arcane units to such a point system globally and have the pushing over this limit cause the chances of a Miscast to raise. Then it fits the Lore about the number of Casters in the world depleting the magical power levels. Problem is that making this limit be player by player doesn't make much sense, and making it be global means that instead of you having to decide to keep your own caster numbers low to be safe, you have to worry about your opponents spamming magical units to dilute the pool and ruin your capability to attack him.


The solution of course would be that adepts don't count toward the limitation, Mages BARELY count toward it, and Archmages count a LOT toward it. I would do this by linking the number to PROMOTIONS instead of UNITS. Rank I spells are free, everyone can have them without diluting the pool. Rank II spells cost a bit, but Rank III spells cost a TON. Then it is only those Civs who actually have Archmages/Heroes/Lichs who really affect the chances of miscasts in the world, but someone REALLY determined can spam some adepts and wait the time it takes to get them to Mages in the hope to make your Archies start to miscast enough to keep them alive.


Honestly, it could be a decent system. It would utilize the Miscast mechanics, and it would bring the Lore into focus a bit better, while making the magic system somewhat more interesting.


Of course, till the AI starts swinging mages/archmages around it means that Single Player games result in the Human possibly having a larger cap for themselves to play with and no threat.

 

[civ_king]

can there be a separate one per Mana type?

In addition, could all the mana nodes add to the pool, you could have on a national level where each Mana counts as five (so 15 to start with) and tier 2 spells subtract 1 and tier 3 subtract 3? but unchanged Mana (just those basic Mana you find) counts only three so a magic civ would have a pressing need to acquire mana, oh and each tower (for Mastery) should count as ten (with the ToM counting as 30, just because)

I hope what I have said makes sense

 

[Jheral]

I do wish there was a way to make different kinds of units count toward the archmage cap...

It's very much possible; similarly, I've made a modification to my game making Liches count towards the Immortal unit count, meaning that each lich I have means I get one less immortal (I've made some other changes to them as well, making them a bit more powerful; so I figured there'd have to be some tradeoff).

You'd simply take the unit you want to count as archmage, find it in Civ4UnitInfos.xml, change it's class to UNITCLASS_ARCHMAGE, and delete it's own class entry in Civ4UnitClassInfos.xml.

You'd have to make a 'spell' to upgrade the unit into that unit type (you wouldn't be able to upgrade to it 'naturally', as it were), but that's fairly easy to do (with liches it's already there, for example; you just have to add to the python reqs for the spell that it should check for many archmages you have in play).

Of course, they wouldn't count as any other type either, so you wouldn't be able to have, for instance, Hemah or Govannon count as archmages this way. Also, I have no idea how well the AI would handle this...

or we could have a hard cap on how many of the highest level units you can have at one time...

Now this idea I sort of like, actually. It would force you to be more careful about what units you use, rather than just get every type as soon as it becomes available.