Archos: Spiders seem weak

[Tarquelne]

Just completed the specialization section of the spider-upgrade project, 5 different types of spider can now be selected.

Very good!

But I'm puzzled as to why most spiders are named after obscure Italian cheeses and another for an infamous vanilla substitute. ("For ice cream with bite!")

 

[Vehem]

Very good!

But I'm puzzled as to why most spiders are named after obscure Italian cheeses and another for an infamous vanilla substitute. ("For ice cream with bite!")

Hehe

Rhagodessa - D&D origin "angry spider/scorpion"
Mucro - latin for sharp tip or pointed part
Argyroneta - half of the latin name for a species of water spiders
Venenum - latin again, roughly "poison" (Venom is actually latin itself, meaning "For Sale" it seems)
Textus - latin for Web or Woven cloth (hence the common name of Weaver Spider).

The Sword and Weaver promotions will actually rename the spider units to their "common name" - not sure if I should find a common name for the others for ease of identification ("Water Spider" etc).

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Not sure which is the vanilla substitute?

 

[xienwolf]

Hrm... any room for a trapdoor spider (Assassin substitute)? And for the weaver spiders I know there is one type of spider known for holding the web it builds between its legs and using it essentially as a net. Can't remember the name of the bugger, but it could be neat enough to replace Weaver (or Textus, which sounds like a cell phone add campaign).

EDIT: Oh, and IIRC, the real world "Weaver Spider" gets the name from the fact that the children create little "baloons" shortly after hatching and float away to find their own slice of the earth to terrorize. Maybe a paradrop type of capability at the advanced level could be fitting?

 

[Tarquelne]

Rhagodessa - Goat and sheep milk cheese noted for it's light blue color and indescribable smell.
Mucro - Ancient Sicilian hard cheese sometimes used as a whetstone, less often as a condiment.
Argyroneta - Cow-milk cheese pressed with herbs and water spiders.
Venenum - Algerian substitute for vanillin, which is a substitute for vanilla. Vanillin was first isolated in pine tree sap and is considered excellent. Venenum is made from scorpion venom and was poorly received everywhere outside Romania.

Textus - latin for Web or Woven cloth

Obviously.

The Sword and Weaver promotions will actually rename the spider units to their "common name"

I prefer the uncommon names, but that's probably for the best considering the confusion they'd cause.

 

[TimSLS]

Perhaps also have them change to beast units when selecting one of these special upgrades? Given the AI propensity to build hunters, and their significant bonuses against animals, even these upgrades may not grant much use to spiders if they remain animals.

Although I am still kind of hoping animals in the wild become beasts after a certain amount of strength is gained - it really takes the specialness away from my hero when at the price of a few hunters I can get a high level base strength 9 polar bear, pretty early in the tech tree.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Looks interesting. I am sure Archos will never become my favourite civ, but, after this, I will play a few games with them. The only time I did try them so far, I was dissapointed by their poor abilities and decided to try the Scions instead .

 

[Breez]

Just completed the specialization section of the spider-upgrade project,

Those are all pretty neat. So far not any more powerful, but definitely flavorful.

Can't wait to see the Broodfather mechanic.
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I think a trapdoor spider as an Assassin UU would be great.

Since you can't use marksman as Defensive...

Could you Give it Defensive to double its fortify bonus... then find a way to apply its Fortify Bonus to an offensive attack, meaning you would want to have it fortify a while to build its "trap" yet still be a marksman offensively?

My office mate Just suggested a nice strong defensive strike for a otherwise weakish base unit would be neat.

 

[WarKirby]

Really not keen on the names, but other than that, these sound fun. Lots of neat toys to play with. However, they DON'T sound powerful.

As I read it, a greater sword spider (mucro) will have a grand total of 7 str (on the attack) with an extra +20%

That's barely sufficient to stand up to an (unpromoted) iron champion. It'd probably still lose to a ranger, and I can't see it being more than a mild annoyance to phalanxes, arquebusiers, immortals, eidolons, high priests, longbowmen, etc.

I hope there are some other raw power improvements planned, because even the strongest one posted there doesn't look very strong
Don't get me wrong, these spiders do sound fun to play with, but I still think I'll get steamrolled if I try to use them as frontline troops.

 

[Breez]

Don't get me wrong, these spiders do sound fun to play with, but I still think I'll get steamrolled if I try to use them as frontline troops.

I am assuming the broodfather mechanic may address more of that. It is an improvement regardless at least some new promos to buy on the ones you can get the exp for.

 

[Vehem]

That's barely sufficient to stand up to an (unpromoted) iron champion. It'd probably still lose to a ranger, and I can't see it being more than a mild annoyance to phalanxes, arquebusiers, immortals, eidolons, high priests, longbowmen, etc.
I hope there are some other raw power improvements planned, because even the strongest one posted there doesn't look very strong
Don't get me wrong, these spiders do sound fun to play with, but I still think I'll get steamrolled if I try to use them as frontline troops.

I am assuming the broodfather mechanic may address more of that. It is an improvement regardless at least some new promos to buy on the ones you can get the exp for.

The main goal of this one is to make it possible to use the spiders for more than just the early stages and in different roles (rather than just harassing workers). Being able to blitz is great for clearing out stacks of weak units (especially with heal-after-combat), sword spiders are a fair counter if the enemy is relying on your weakness to recon units, the weaver line can help with crowd control (same was a radiant guard), Venenum are a good way to get a quick strength boost initially (vs living targets) and are good for weakening enemies with their upgrade. Argyroneta are an oddity, but the amphibious/water walking combination has some obvious tactical uses.

Overall - they're very flexible units considering the tech required for the Archos to gain them, which is nothing. They're never going to be a more than an annoyance to phalanxes, unless they require a tech or similar investment equal to that which phalanxes do. By that stage of the game, the Archos should be relying on their unique high level Melee and Recon units.

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I'm looking at the "Mother-Devouring-Her-Mate" mechanic from the angle of free promotions at the moment. If a spider of Level 4 is devoured, then all spiders that are born after that point in the nest would have 1 free promotion. After that, if a spider of Level 5 were devoured, all new spiders would have 2 free promotions. The level required for being a "fit mate" and the number of free promotions would continue to increase in that manner until 4 free promotions (maxed). You can only increase by 1 free promotion level (Brood Strength Level) for each spider eaten - even if the first one is Level 7.

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The other improvement that the spiders get is that they benefit from the standard trait/building bonuses like any other unit.

In that manner, a Greater Sword Spider (Level 4) as mentioned above from a fully leveled nest would have 5 promotions in addition to the 2 required to gain "Mucro (Greater)", plus the combat promotion from Aggressive, which for me would translate to Combat5 and Mobility1. Combat 5 and Mucro combine for 120% boost (150% vs Recon) onto the base strength of 6 or 7 (depending on whether they also qualify for "Strong"). As this feasibly allows for Strength 15.4 (7 +120%) spiders at Level 4, my main concern is if they're going to be *too powerful* rather than too weak...

 

[Breez]

ack... editing gone bad

 

[Breez]

I understand his point of they are comparatively weak. When I played them I found them fun but the spiders could never live long enough to ever GET powerful. Maybe one or two you get early that happen to accomplish something while the enemy was weak but very quickly it was impossible to do anything with new ones.

I think the broodfather idea, starting with multiple promos will help, my concern would be getting one high enough level to ever get it to go back to feed to mother.

However there are certain times, those few spiders that got lucky, get too much exp. They max out their buyable promotions too fast I think. The options listed DO give them 4-5 new levels worth to work on. I think it might be interesting to talk about giving them access to the Drill line. While I think it makes the most sense for the Venenum, as they could ALSO get the 2 new Defensive strike promos at Drill 5 then, Limiting Drill to just them would seem limiting to the other lines.

So then 2 questions

Free promotions you mention are those via extra starting exp? or simply promotions that you chose then you get the next promotion at 2xp?

If you are concerned about too powerful... maybe consider Brood Strength Level to simply add Hardy 1, thru Hardy 5. If I named the right promo there they simply add 10% STR per level so at level 5 Brood Strength Level they start with just Hardy 5 and then start EXPing up after that.

Personally lean toward the 2nd option. A 50% maxed boost is decent AND they can still gain Combat promotions. They start weaker but they end stronger, if you can get them there.​

and

Have you ever considered some sort of sacrifice of baby spiders to larger spiders sort of like bood pets to Vampires? or maybe "age" them, if you can keep them alive for say 20 turns they evolve to a giant spider?

Those baby spiders are useless late game, they can not win any fight to ever "grow up"​

 

[xienwolf]

Hadn't thought about baby spiders yet. It might be nice if the baby spiders popped in combat could inherit some promotions from their father, but if they were able to get the full Brood benefits that might be a bit too strong, unless the chance to promote from baby to giant was made fairly minimal.

 

[WarKirby]

Overall - they're very flexible units considering the tech required for the Archos to gain them, which is nothing. They're never going to be a more than an annoyance to phalanxes, unless they require a tech or similar investment equal to that which phalanxes do.

I guess this is my point here, then.

I would like spiders to be a viable unit, all game. I'd like them to have more potential than any normal archos unit, I think

And I really wouldn't mind tech investment required for that. That was kind of the idea behind the suggestion of various unique buildings to boost spiders. Obviously, such buildings would require researching appropriate techs, hence they would allow powerful spiders, but not right away.

I'm the kind of person who thinks in the long term. If spiders are "never going to be a more than an annoyance to phalanxes", then why should I invest effort in developing and enhancing them? If they're doomed to be inferior forever, what is the purpose?

I'd really like to have spiders be a force to be reckoned with, against even the highest level units. If that requires significant tech investment on the archos' part, then I fully support that. The 10% research penalty for being barbarian isn't actually that bad in practice. I find, with the incredible military potential they have, archos can easily take and hold a comparitively bigger empire to keep up with other races, techwise.

I don't think tech investment to improve spiders is a bad thing at all, and I'd certainly rather have the option to expend effort on improving them, than be stuck with units that are permanantly inferior.

does that make sense?

 

[xienwolf]

Maybe what would serve your desires best is if at some point you developed the ability to change a spider into a Haruspex? Then all of his promoting early in the game can be carried over into a full-fledged unit and all of the potential upgrades it has through the tech tree.

 

[WarKirby]

I think the other way would make more sense, a haruspex becoming a spider, since they're basically people who combine with spiders in many ways. They would view it as an ascension, of sorts.

I don't really see the logic in a spider somehow developing human genes, and morphing into a biped.

Can't we just get a ReallyScarySwordPhaseTrapdoorWebspinnerVenomspitterSuperSpider that requires commune with nature to create, and acts as a final evolution point, of sorts?

or perhaps multiple things along those lines.

 

[Valkrionn]

I would see a spider upgrading to a Haruspex more as the spider merging with the human than becoming partially human.

 

[Vehem]

Maybe what would serve your desires best is if at some point you developed the ability to change a spider into a Haruspex? Then all of his promoting early in the game can be carried over into a full-fledged unit and all of the potential upgrades it has through the tech tree.

I think the other way would make more sense, a haruspex becoming a spider, since they're basically people who combine with spiders in many ways. They would view it as an ascension, of sorts.

I don't really see the logic in a spider somehow developing human genes, and morphing into a biped.

Can't we just get a ReallyScarySwordPhaseTrapdoorWebspinnerVenomspitterSuperSpider that requires commune with nature to create, and acts as a final evolution point, of sorts?

or perhaps multiple things along those lines.

I would see a spider upgrading to a Haruspex more as the spider merging with the human than becoming partially human.

Possibly allowing the Haruspex and high level spider units to merge to become a "Haruspex with Spider" unit (both models shown in game, a combination of their strengths given to the unit). The main recon line already thematically have spiders with them (the models include the spiders of various sizes).

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In anycase - given that spiders are not a national unit - the fact that they can reach Str 12 at level 1 (Aggressive gives Combat 1, Brood Strength 4 gives 4 free promotions, so Combat 2-5) means that a policy of early aggression (which is the Archos theme) ensures that the late game spiders are very potent. The only downside they face is that a Level 6 National Unit is going to be much stronger than them, because the national units will then also have Combat5, whilst the spiders have a limited selection of promotions left to take.

The cost of getting such a powerful spider brood however is that at some point you have to achieve a Level 4, a Level 5, a Level 6 and a Level 7 spider, then sacrifice them in turn. That works out at 80 experience gained by spiders I believe.

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I don't think any unit that can start at effective Strength 12 is going to be weak and if it needs tweaking, I'd expect it to be down rather than up. The only thing keeping them in check is that they're arriving at near their full potential and don't have much more to gain, whilst normal high level units get more powerful very quickly as they level. If you're achieving a full nest by the champion era however, I can see it being potentially overpowering - but I'll wait for some feedback on that.

The other thing I want to do is find a way for the AI to learn how to handle it. In the short term, I'd be tempted to allow them to sacrifice spiders anywhere within their own borders, rather than having to take them back to the nest.

 

[WarKirby]

Effective strength 12 is not the same as actual strength 12, though.
Other percentage bonuses only apply to the base strength, so they'll have far less to gain from normal promotions.

I'd much prefer those Brood Strength promos to give flat amounts of strength, rather than percentage values. The exact values could be tweaked so that they'd effectively be about the same as what's proposed, as a base, but they'd still have the potential to match up to stronger units when properly levelled.

Units that start with a base strength of 12, or are somehow capable of combatting that, are not really so hard to come by. A champion can achieve it with some mild promotion, or special equipment. As can rangers. Immortals, Phalanxes, Berserkers, Paladins, etc, are already capable of that level, when unpromoted.

An important thing to keep in mind, is that the AI gets free promos at higher difficulty levels. In addition to the many civics, wonders, and buildings that give free xp. It's really not hard to get powerful units straight out of the gate, and they're going to be both immediately, and in the long run, more powerful than these spiders. Even early in the game, around monarch or emperor difficulty, it's not uncommon to be attacked by hordes of lv4 axemen.

Another important thing to remember, is that normal units can be mass produced. You speak of high tier national units as if they're really special and awesome. While some of them with level requirements aren't so easy to get, like immortals, high priests et al, others, like paladins, rangers, champions, eidolons, berserkers, musketmen, longbowmen, crossbowmen, and such things, can be mass produced. It's not unfeasible to have several cities with the production capacity to churn out a high level unit every single turn.

The archos spiders are limited to "whenever the hell the game feels like giving you them", and can't be produced on demand. Now obviously, they're not intended to be your rank and file soldiers. But the spiders are rarer, and special. And you're coming up with a lot of cool mechanics to improve them here. But if at their ultimate potential, they're not going to be able to stand up to high tier units, what is the point of them?

As far as I can see, your main argument is that the spiders might be too powerful because the archos don't have to invest production in building them, and can get them for free. But I feel this is counteracted by the lack of control in when you get them, and an inability to mass produce them.

If you kill a paladin, it's a simple matter for the enemy to upgrade a priest, or just build another paladin. I have actually seen this happen. An AI player with hundreds of priests, just upgraded them into new paladins as fast as the old ones fell. If they kill one of your spiders, you have no immediate recourse for replacing it, except time and luck. I feel that justifies them being fairly exceptional in strength, and that they should be capable of standing up to almost anything when properly promoted (heroes excluded, generally).

Remember also, that nothing is invincible. Even a str 30 unit can be taken down with relative ease, if the enemy spams enough champions at it. Strength is a primary determining factor in single combat. But being mobbed by large groups can easily make strength irrelevant, beyond maybe incrementing the number of cannon fodder units the enemy needs to expend.

 

[Vehem]

Another important thing to remember, is that normal units can be mass produced. You speak of high tier national units as if they're really special and awesome. While some of them with level requirements aren't so easy to get, like immortals, high priests et al, others, like paladins, rangers, champions, eidolons, berserkers, musketmen, longbowmen, crossbowmen, and such things, can be mass produced. It's not unfeasible to have several cities with the production capacity to churn out a high level unit every single turn.

Mass produced to a maximum of 4, which isn't a terribly massive number. Even if it's one per turn, you're only going to get 4 of them.

The archos spiders are limited to "whenever the hell the game feels like giving you them", and can't be produced on demand. Now obviously, they're not intended to be your rank and file soldiers. But the spiders are rarer, and special.

Slightly less rare in the redux - Dark Wealds have had their bonus increased and baby spiders count half as much as they used to. I've also dropped the nest population requirements for each stage slightly (4 to spawn, 8 for giant, 12 for strong)

And you're coming up with a lot of cool mechanics to improve them here. But if at their ultimate potential, they're not going to be able to stand up to high tier units, what is the point of them?

3/4 or more of the game isn't played with high tier units. That is the period for which they are designed and are useful. By the end game, you should have Mother, Haruspex and Spiderkin - all of which are potent enough, especially when backed up by a potentially large number of Strength 12 (or 15.4 if they've gone for Greater Sword Spider) units.

As far as I can see, your main argument is that the spiders might be too powerful because the archos don't have to invest production in building them, and can get them for free. But I feel this is counteracted by the lack of control in when you get them, and an inability to mass produce them.

Yup - that's the balancing factor. Just remains to be seen if it's possible to get too many, too quickly despite that restriction. They are free, hidden nationality, potentially invisible (even if recon isn't that rare) and require nothing to obtain except growing your capital. Even the method for improving them costs nothing - it uses only the free units themselves. Anything you gain from them is a bonus to what you have available anyway.

Additionally you have less building requirements than most civs which means more hammers to be spent on units earlier in the game, allowing you to land grab effectively at the beginning.

If you kill a paladin, it's a simple matter for the enemy to upgrade a priest, or just build another paladin. I have actually seen this happen. An AI player with hundreds of priests, just upgraded them into new paladins as fast as the old ones fell. If they kill one of your spiders, you have no immediate recourse for replacing it, except time and luck. I feel that justifies them being fairly exceptional in strength, and that they should be capable of standing up to almost anything when properly promoted (heroes excluded, generally).

If you're at a stage of the game where Paladins/Eidolons are available, feel free to build some yourself. Or Recluses, or Spiderkin, or Chosen, or Eternals, or anything else. You'll still get the spiders, so you'll be that many free units ahead of the opponent.

The chance of getting a new spider each turn is [Nest Population + (Number of Cities*2) + (Number of Dark Wealds*4) - (2*Number Giant Spiders + Number of Baby Spiders)]. With a nest population of 12 and 8 cities total, you're looking at a 36% chance per turn if you currently have no spiders, or 8% if you already have 10 Giant Spiders. Every Dark Weald you own also negates the probability-cost of 2 Giant Spiders, so 8 cities each with a Dark Weald would give a total of (12 + 8*2 + 8*4) for 60% chance if you currently have none, and a maximum of 30 Giant Spiders.

Remember also, that nothing is invincible. Even a str 30 unit can be taken down with relative ease, if the enemy spams enough champions at it. Strength is a primary determining factor in single combat. But being mobbed by large groups can easily make strength irrelevant, beyond maybe incrementing the number of cannon fodder units the enemy needs to expend.

Spamming 120 units with a moderate tech cost to deal with a free unit with no tech cost is a problem. After you've used 4 champions to kill the high strength unit, you still have to deal with the 4 champions that your opponent still has (as there is no penalty to their ability to create standard units due to their free unit).

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Things are done for now in anycase and the changes are committed. The Archos weren't weak as a civ beforehand when the spiders were a flavour mechanic rather than something you'd want to concentrate on. Now it's very much worthwhile to build up the Broodchamber for at least the first 3 tiers of the game, with them still having some use during Tier 4.