Ardennes Offensive

The Germans suffered a lot of casualties during this battle. These units were desparatley needed on the eastern front. The German high command did a pretty good scraping together all the divisions for this attack even if there were a lot of Volksturrum. A good book on the subject is: Joachim Peiper 'The devil's adjudant'. It has a really good apendix
 
Indeed they were needed in the east, from what I remember Hitler threw more tanks into the Bulge than he had on the entire eastern front! Considering the ludicrously poor chance of a sizeable victory and the other factors involved it was a futile exercise.
 
it might have worked. If they had taken antwerp and its overwhelming supplies, they also would have cut the btirish off in holland. They hoped of r a seperate peace with them to prove the salvation of germany.
 
They tried moving armoured forces over a wooded, mountainous terrain in the middle of winter. In 1944 they had appalling weather (a two edged sword), blocked roads, never enough fuel and supplies, not enough room to manouver, difficult terrain to overcome, the wrong tanks for the attack and so on. It was doomed to failiure before it began, the allies in the west were infinitely unlikely to collapse as quickly as they did in 1940, Antwerp was well beyond the operational range of the King Tiger or Panther, they would never have reached it without capturing supplies.

The Allies were fighting for keeps and would probably never sue anyway. Neither the USA or Britain were anything like as poor in their generals or tactics as the Franco-British forces of 1940. The whole thing was a pipe dream, Hitler lived in a dream world at this stage, no operation coming under the conditions the Germans in the bulge faced would suceed without the biggest amount of blind luck in the history of warfare.
 
The chances for Germany's success were not good, but they managed to kill alot of people and stall an Allied advance into Germany for months. Hitler seemed to (incredibly) believe that once the Soviets started over-running Germany, the Western Allies would switch sides in the war.
 
Originally posted by joespaniel
The chances for Germany's success were not good, but they managed to kill alot of people and stall an Allied advance into Germany for months. Hitler seemed to (incredibly) believe that once the Soviets started over-running Germany, the Western Allies would switch sides in the war.

True, but at the cost of many of his larger tanks to lack of fuel rather than in combat with the enemy, and some of his more elite troops.
 
true, i would still have slammed the ardennes. but i would have slammed straight for antwerp then took the fuel re-establish the line and i would have sent the 25 divisions to the east to kill alot of russians. I would likely have to split them, and use the western front's half to stall them on the rhine and seigfreid lines. how aobout any1 else? what would have been your war plan?
 
Mine would have followed Rundstedt's advice:

"surrender you fool" :D (not directed at you sarevok btw)

I personally don't think any kind of drive to the Rhine was worth the manpower, supply and equipment losses. German plans heavily relied on intact bridges over the Meuse, something for which they relied on Skorzeny's men(the greif commandos), who in this role failed before they even started when the cover for their mission was blown before the attacks even began. Also the brigade he raised using US equipment was woefully under-equiped and forced to modify german stuff to appear american. Also the delays in the early days of fighting caused the Meuse crossings to be protected better before the Germans could ever arrive.

Whilst it's good for Hitler that the Germans pushed the allies back that far, their chances of sucess on the expected scale were laughable. All the allies needed was time to concentrate and counter-attack, this was bought in dozens of ways, not all of them combat related. Anywhere the Germans tried such an assault was less likely to suceed because the Allies could bring more resources and men to the campaign in time.

I personally wouldn't have bothered at all with the whole offensive. The germans ability to transfer both supplies and troops from font to front on such a scale was minimal to say the least, negating the possibility of smashing the allies and then running east straight away. Also I don't know what you mean by attacking straight to antwerp, I was under the impression that that was the german intention...
 
Germany didn't have the fuel to fight an offensive war by the winter of 1944. British and American bombers had almost completely cut off thier supply.

In the end, the Battle of the Bulge just made it easier for the Russians to smash thier way into Germany while holding up the Western Allies for a few months. Considering what the Soviets did to Germany, it probably was a bad idea.
 
If I were Hitler I would have used all my best forces to fight a defensive war in the East. Germans had more stomach for fighting the Soviets than the British/Americans. The Russians were barbarians and after witnessing their conduct in East Prussia and other German territories it would have been my main priority to stop them.
The hatred I have for Hitler stems not so much from what he did to the Jews but from what he put the German people through.
 
Originally posted by rilnator
Germans had more stomach for fighting the Soviets than the British/Americans.
You can be pretty sure that pretty much everyone was happy to be assigned to the Western front instead of the Eastern one... ;)
 
Originally posted by Sarevok
true, i would still have slammed the ardennes. but i would have slammed straight for antwerp then took the fuel re-establish the line and i would have sent the 25 divisions to the east to kill alot of russians. I would likely have to split them, and use the western front's half to stall them on the rhine and seigfreid lines.

That was pretty much what Hitler was hoping to achieve ;)

An interesting thing about the battle of the bulge is that it provides an interesting counter-point against the people who argue that the French were fools for not anticipating a German armoured thrust through the Ardennes in 1940. As the events of 1944 clearly illustrated, the French were pefectly justified in holding the belief that the Ardennes was lousy tank country. Their mistake was to not deploy the relatively small number of quality troops who were needed to convert the Ardennes from lousy tank country to impassable tank country.

BTW, I don't see how the attack slowed the Western Allies penetration of Germany - at the time of the German attack, this effort had already been all but abandoned due to logistical problems, the winter weather and the unexpected strength of the German border defences. If anything, Hitler's offencive greatly increased the speed of the Allied offencive into Germany - the 300,000 killed and captured the Germans lost would have been a lot more effective had they stayed behind the West Wall and Rhine River. Most military historians think that the attack greatly helped the Allies efforts in 1945, and I see no reason to disagree.
 
very well put, that was the thing that was missing, though in 1940 they couldnt because belgium would have declared war. Belgium had turmoil in between wars and when war outbroke they massed on both borders.
 
Originally posted by rilnator
The Russians were barbarians and after witnessing their conduct in East Prussia and other German territories it would have been my main priority to stop them.

The Germans did much, much worse things to the Poles and Russians first.
 
Originally posted by Case
Most military historians think that the attack greatly helped the Allies efforts in 1945, and I see no reason to disagree.

Everything I've read says the opposite. It took over a month to regain the ground lost and another six weeks to reconstitute the front line units, most of which suffered huge casualties.
 
Originally posted by Case
If anything, Hitler's offencive greatly increased the speed of the Allied offencive into Germany - the 300,000 killed and captured the Germans lost would have been a lot more effective had they stayed behind the West Wall and Rhine River.

At the conclusion of the battle the casualties were 81,000 U.S. with 19,000 killed, 1400 British with 200 killed, and 100,000 Germans killed, wounded or captured.

I don't know where you're getting this 300,000 from.
 
Originally posted by joespaniel


The Germans did much, much worse things to the Poles and Russians first.

How nice, nice to see savage actions are excused because somebody did it first.....

Massacre begat massacre I suppose.
 
Originally posted by joespaniel
Everything I've read says the opposite. It took over a month to regain the ground lost and another six weeks to reconstitute the front line units, most of which suffered huge casualties.

In the words of the offical US Army history of the battle The Ardennes: Battle of the Bulge "The material losses inflicted by German action [during the Battle of the Bulge] represented only a temporary dimuation of the fighting strength of a few of the American divisions and were normally replaced within a fortnight".

At the conclusion of the battle the casualties were 81,000 U.S. with 19,000 killed, 1400 British with 200 killed, and 100,000 Germans killed, wounded or captured.

The offical history gives American battle casualties as:
total: 41,3155
killed in action: 4,138
wounded in action: 20,231
missing in action: 16,946 (most of whom would have been captured)

During the period of the battle, the US Army formations in the Ardennes recieved 31,505 individual replacements to make up these losses.
(all figures are from page 674)

While there were doubtless thousands more casulties from the cold, accidents and the like, it's hard to say what proportion of these can be attributed to the German's decision to go on the offencive.

Unfortunetly, the book doesn't offer a definitive figure for the German losses, observing that, on average, each German division involved in the battle took about 2,500 casualties (these would have been much higher in some formations then others). Your figure for total casualties is undoubtably more accurate then mine though - the Offical History says that the total German strength at the start of the offencive was about 200,000 men :o (as compared to about 83,000 Americans).

I can't find figures for German equipment losses, but they must have been considerable - for example, the US 2nd Armoured Division claimed the destructionof 82 German tanks, 83 artillery guns and over 400 trucks in a matter of days (see page 574). Given that the Germans had almost no ability to make good these losses and issue them to units at the front, such losses would have been crippling - 82 tanks would have been the best part of a Panzer division for example.*

In terms of damage to a formations, the history states that a single US infantry division was destroyed, and two divisions, along with an Armoured Combat Comand were temporarily crippled.

Considering that during the fighting on the West Wall the casualty ratio was undoubtably going against the Allies, and they still hadn't satisfactorally breached the wall by the time of the German attack, I can't see how there could be any argument that the Allied victory during the Battle of the Bulge shortened the war. Aside from the mathematics, the fact that the Germans utterly wasted their last throw of the dice (which would have fallen somewhere) can only have shortened the war. If those units had been, say, lurking behind the Rhine when the Western Allies staged their crossing, or been positioned to oppose the Soviet Vistula-Oder operation then the war could easily have been extended for a few more horrible months while the Allies licked their wounds.

Indeed, some people even believe in a conspiracy theory where Eiesnhower ordered a blind eye to be turned to the German preperations in order to ensure that they launched an attack, so that their formations could be destroyed in the open! (I don't believe this myself - the Allied reserves were out of place, and any relevant files would have been declasified by now).




*Incidently, the 2nd Armoured Division's losses during the same period were 5 light tanks and 22 medium tanks, which should provide some food for thought for those folks who seem to think that American armour always took heavy losses when fighting German armour. (personel casualties were even lower: 17 KIA, 26 missing and 201 wounded). It should be noted though that the 2nd Armoured was a very good division.
 
Either way, the offensive gained nothing in real terms. Hitler's forces were no longer capable of offensive actions by this stage of the war, to launch one was pointless. To launch one like the bulge was laughable. If it speeded the defeat then I say a big "thanks" to Mein Fuhrer ;)
 
Originally posted by privatehudson
Either way, the offensive gained nothing in real terms. Hitler's forces were no longer capable of offensive actions by this stage of the war, to launch one was pointless. To launch one like the bulge was laughable. If it speeded the defeat then I say a big "thanks" to Mein Fuhrer ;)

My thoughts exactly. The attack was an act of folly, which shortened the sufferings of millions.
 
Back
Top Bottom