Are Hyborem/Basium Strong enough

[Calbrenar]

I'm aware that Hyborem at least can be ridiculously strong if set up properly. But unless I'm vastly mistaken this requires quite a bit of setup to pull off. Like not getting infernal pact until you research some key things and unless ther'es a fairly evil presence in game you can't grow unless you declare on your only ally. Basium can't even do that because he's a team so unless good get killed like crazy he's sort of stuck.

I just wonder for the time they come out if they should be buffed some? I think they could be strengthened significantly to make them a viable option in mp and it really wouldn't make them unbeatable in sp

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

I dont think they need buffing just an earlier start. As it stands by the time they are summoned the other civs are too strong for them. Now if played by a human these issues can be over come but I have never seen the AI do anything worth while with them except turtling inside their one or two cities...

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

my suggestion to make them stronger is to give Hyborem 5 settliers so that five cities can be founded with infernal citizens ( that is if there is enough land) and Basium should stay the same, just summoned sooner, because even if he isnt that strong he is part of a stronger perminant allince with his summoner. I would suggests makeing the mercurian gate very cheep to build maybe taking about 10 turns in your average city.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

my suggestion to make them stronger is to give Hyborem 5 settliers so that five cities can be founded with infernal citizens ( that is if there is enough land) and Basium should stay the same, just summoned sooner, because even if he isnt that strong he is part of a stronger perminant allince with his summoner. I would suggests makeing the mercurian gate very cheep to build maybe taking about 10 turns in you average city.

Both of these ideas are great, I think. 5 settlers may be a bit much, but some number of free ones would definitely help a lot.

Basium and Hyborem, due to the strength of their hero units, have no trouble coming right out of the gate conquering someone. It's setting up an economy from scratch that they need help with.

 

[Kael]

The biggest problem (IMO) for both of these guys is that the AI doesn't act aggresivly enough with them. I've already made a change in 0.32 to get the AI to consider them both to be more powerful than they are in 0.31

Right now it thinks all the other empires are more powerful so it turtles up. Instead it should be getting out there trying to take land through conquest and causing damage. Even Basium, who will decalre war, doesn't aggresivly enough in pursueing those wars.

So thats my first step at least. Once I get them out engaing in war I'l have a better idea if they are balanced appropriatly.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

That'll help the AI, yeah, but I was talking about throwing a bone to those of us who want to switch to Hyborem and Basium and not be stuck scratching our heads once we've beat up a civ or two.

 

[Jean Elcard]

I like the proposal of making the Mercurian Gate cheaper. It's usually more preferable to have your ally Basium start somewhere in your periphery (or should I say in close contact with his/your enemies) than in one of your core cities. Better for you and for him. Maybe a small temporary boost for the city he was summoned in would be in order in this case.

 

[Calbrenar]

The biggest problem (IMO) for both of these guys is that the AI doesn't act aggresivly enough with them. I've already made a change in 0.32 to get the AI to consider them both to be more powerful than they are in 0.31

Right now it thinks all the other empires are more powerful so it turtles up. Instead it should be getting out there trying to take land through conquest and causing damage. Even Basium, who will decalre war, doesn't aggresivly enough in pursueing those wars.

So thats my first step at least. Once I get them out engaing in war I'l have a better idea if they are balanced appropriatly.

I know you're probably getting tired of me repeating this but I really don't care all that much about how things go in single player lol. The only time I play single player is when I want to test something quick or if I want to get data for an AAR. I'm more concerned about how they play in multiplayer and unforutunately there is typically on reason to ever switch to them because if you found them early enough to make them have any chance of being useful its because you had an early prod/tech lead and are giving up a big advantage to play at a big disadvantage. And despite the hero'es strength neither one of them is strong enough to take a savvy human player's civ. Maybe it works against the other AI but the AI isn't supposed to be having any major work done until later on in design. So I'd personally rather see something that makes them more competive in MP. Any thing that helps there will be of enormous benefit to human players and can hardly hurt hte AI. As it stands the only nice thing Hyborem has going for him he loses in MP (world spell)

 

[attackdrone]

I was recently playing Bannor on a huge epic Terra game on Immortal difficulty with 16 civs, and Hyborem was summoned around turn 300. Of course he appeared in the new world. After engaging in several extended wars with the entire world, seeing as they were all the vassals of Faeryl Viconia, who hated my Order-following Bannor (she was Ashen Veil) I opened up world builder to check on Hyborem. The Infernals had settled the entirety of the north and south hemispheres of the new world, with an average city size of 12 (their central cities were size 40 or so). It was pretty scary.

In short, yes, Hyborem can do extremely well, he just needs to have a bit of room to establish himself. Terra maps work well for that.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Hyborem really needs better traits. Expansive is useless for Fallow Trait leaders anyway.

 

[Tarquelne]

In short, yes, Hyborem can do extremely well, he just needs to have a bit of room to establish himself.

That's exactly where he has problems in my games. He appears on a small bit of land near someone powerful who squishes him like a big burning bug.

Basium, OTOH, is generally well-protected in the heart of some powerful empire.

I think improving the AI would help, but I suspect Hyborem is still going to get squished.

The way Hyborem appears on some unclaimed land is fun, though. Could he start with defensive pacts with any evil civs? (Cancel-able, but perhaps helpful for awhile.) More land? Or multiple cities, with the hope that every city isn't near an exterminator? Maybe he keeps re-opening a gate and reappearing? Three tries, perhaps?

 

[kumquatelvis]

The one time I did well with Basium is was because I moved my capital, then planted the gate in my original city. And the one time I did well with Hyborum it required a super tech rush to get him as early as possible (Revelry really helped). And even the it was close for a while.

 

[Kael]

I know you're probably getting tired of me repeating this but I really don't care all that much about how things go in single player lol. The only time I play single player is when I want to test something quick or if I want to get data for an AAR. I'm more concerned about how they play in multiplayer and unforutunately there is typically on reason to ever switch to them because if you found them early enough to make them have any chance of being useful its because you had an early prod/tech lead and are giving up a big advantage to play at a big disadvantage. And despite the hero'es strength neither one of them is strong enough to take a savvy human player's civ. Maybe it works against the other AI but the AI isn't supposed to be having any major work done until later on in design. So I'd personally rather see something that makes them more competive in MP. Any thing that helps there will be of enormous benefit to human players and can hardly hurt hte AI. As it stands the only nice thing Hyborem has going for him he loses in MP (world spell)

Im actually very interested in MP feedback. In my mind its more valuable than single player because it indicates the true relative strength of the feature (without viewing it through the kalidescope of the AI).

Did you use Hyborems world spell in Mp? Did it cause OOS's?

I could certainly increase Hyborems starting units and give the demon promotion +1 unholy strength, so all Hyborems units get a little bigger.

 

[Demus]

by the way, i still notice the infernal buildings not being placed in conquered cities (at least not to my old capitol in my last sheiam -> infernal game). Could be because i had the ToC aswell though.

 

[thapagan]

One tweak should be a big "culture bomb" for both of them, weather it is a unit like an artist, or the magically siezing of land that happens in Ryse and fall.

Nothing make me want to cry more then seeing the mighty hyboream capital city squeezed onto four or five squares of land between the third and fifth place civs.
Maybe the world spell should be tweak so it takes some of the nearest cities,
" if 3 squares for dis roll to join infernal 75%, 4 squares 50% etc."
and of course rolls to declare war if a city is taken.
Then in some games he could be a monster everyone wants to take down and in others
he is the same as he is now, that big bad noisy biker down the block that does not mow is lawn......

 

[MagisterCultuum]

You could let Manes create the Infernal citizens building, and be able to boost culture (I'm thinking somewhere between a normal disciple and a Great Artist, but closer to the disciples)

You could make the AI use an aggressive unit AI for the Hyborem unit instead of using him as a city defender.

You could give him some early HN UUs, so he can start attacking his enemies before actually declaring war. It might also be nice for a few of his unit to be invisible (including some settlers?) so he isn't so trapped by rival borders.


Obviously, Hyborem needs better traits.


It might be good if he got extra yields from flames. His arrival creates a lot of burning sands that have no yields and cannot be worked. Alternately, you could make a flames upgrade that requires AV state religion, a la Ancient Forests. You could even have Balors spawn there like Treants do in Ancient Forests.


Would it be too much for Hyborem himself to capture the units he defeats as Manes? If the chances are reasonable (clearly not 100%), I think that could be good (of course, it might help humans more than AIs)

 

[Tarquelne]

I could certainly increase Hyborems starting units and give the demon promotion +1 unholy strength, so all Hyborems units get a little bigger.

I think that'd be great.

One tweak should be a big "culture bomb" for both of them, weather it is a unit like an artist, or the magically siezing of land that happens in Ryse and fall.

And that.

Alternately, you could make a flames upgrade that requires AV state religion, a la Ancient Forests. You could even have Balors spawn there like Treants do in Ancient Forests.

And that, too.

 

[Jean Elcard]

I could certainly increase Hyborems starting units and give the demon promotion +1 unholy strength, so all Hyborems units get a little bigger.

Would be a good start in the battle for making him more competitive. Is it possible to link the amount of starting units for Hyborem somehow to the strength of the other empires? This way it would be easier for him even in the case of a late summoning.

 

[sylvain5477]

Im actually very interested in MP feedback. In my mind its more valuable than single player because it indicates the true relative strength of the feature (without viewing it through the kalidescope of the AI).

Did you use Hyborems world spell in Mp? Did it cause OOS's?

I did once switch to infernals in MP, when I wanting to get away for the lurchuip player as sheiam.
Asd it was not planned and kind of late in game I arrived on ice part of the map, without OOS. From there I could quickly overrun the malakim (only good left except the other human player), and I had a nice number of cities, but I had big problems with happiness as it seems the demonic citizen features never seems to appear in conquered cities.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

I reiterate: Hyborem is beefy enough as is, so are his sects of flies. When it comes to actually playing as him, strength is not where he needs help. Economy is. There are a lot of good ideas here, one or maybe two of which should probably be picked and implemeted:

- Some free starting settlers
- The ability to build Demonic Citizens with Manes so they don't feel the need to raze and resettle all the time
- A better trait than expansive

Giving him beefier units or a mechanism for randomly getting free Balors feels like overkill though. He's good enough at bonking heads as is. Avoid Genghis Khan syndrome with him (I.E making him really strong at war but totally inept at actually turning his war gains into something profitable)

Regardless of all this he should kinda suck if brought in on turn 300 on normal speed or something. Empires are big, sprawling and established by then. One archangel with a small, if competent, force shouldn't be enough to really scare even one of these big empires. But yeah, he should be scarier to a world filled with empires that are still developing and incomplete.