[GS] Are IZs and Production good now? (Post June 2019 update)

[Sostratus]

Victoria. A +11 Production 20% cheaper factory , roll on Cardiff for very early production.

Certainly WotW has gotten a huge boost. Although in IZs specifically they aren't really benefiting more than others (except with niche military engineers building canals; dams should already be in place)
+11 factory? It's currently +5 when powered, right? So +4 for Workshop and then are you assuming a james Watt?
I'm very excited for industrial england though. Shame there's still the Sea Runt instead of a nice ironclad UU...

I mean one has to remember that the point wasn't to make IZ broken but to make it more useful for when it is built.

They are ultimately shifting the best IZ locations from high production terrain to relatively low/moderate production terrain and in the process make placing IZs more of an involved puzzle than before, which is good.
The big mining towns aren't going to lose very much % wise.

With mines and lumbermills and quarries they have made the production match so it's not superior to always chop the feature and replace with a mine. At least with lumber mills and quarries tracking mines you'll have a decision. Currently, for example, you get just as much production if not more at all stages of the game from mining a hill vs having a forest hill or milled forest hill. So why not get the free chop and then build a mine and sacrifice nothing but appeal?
But honestly all improvements have lagged behind farms and mines since launch. Plantations especially, for how insanely important specialized resource harvesting has been historically, are terrible improvements. Camps too (a far cry some civ5 where a handful of deer could make even tundra forests worthwhile.)

 

[Victoria]

It's currently +5 when powered, right?

My bad, changed post for clarity

 

[Sostratus]

My bad

If you stacked James Watt, tesla, and mausoleum they can push a factory (locally) to +17, with +13 aura. Is the WotW bonus on the base yield or the powered yield? And has anyone confirmed WotW factory boost is applied to the aura or just locally?
Just getting Watt and having +13 loca factory production is going to be so tasty...

 

[Victoria]

And has anyone confirmed

It is just to standard yield. And is +4 when powered.

 

[Caprikel]

So basically an English factory provides +2 production without power, and jumps +7 to +9 when powered? That
really makes power huge for England. Also the new adjacencies for Industrial districts probably favor England
quite a bit since they can build dams and canals much faster and efficiently, in addition to not having to rely on
hills anymore, and instead more so on rivers. Also strategic resources provide adjacency, which actually favors
England a bit due to their slight iron and coal start bias.
Now combine that better Industrial zone adjacency with a big beautiful COAL power plant, and a double adjacency
for IZ's card, and England's IZ's will be looking mighty fine. Of course they also have the 20% bonus to building
IZ buildings, which is Icing on the cake.
These bonuses to the IZ make the IZ for England effectively a pseudo-unique district, similar to how the aquaduct
is like a pseudo-unique district for the Khmer. England with an actual Unique district plus a pseudo-unique district
has a nice combination going on, now if only it synergized fully by having the IZ getting a adjacency bonus with
the Harbor district.
I can't wait to try England now, this plus the fix to upgrading units will make England much more fun to play.

 

[acluewithout]

The production, IZ, Tier 3 buildings and WotW all look pretty good.

I feel like IZs should have kept the +1 for mines and I like the idea of a bonus for Harbours. But I also appreciate these could have balance issues. If Mines have a +1, then you’re going to chop any resource in a hill (stone, wood), because you can then place a mine and get +1. And giving Harbours a bonus would make an IZ pretty much optimal in every coastal city (although maybe that’s the shot in the arm Coastal Cities need).

I’m happy to play things out and see how it goes, and maybe try out some changes via mods.

 

[Ziad]

I honestly don't see why they forgot about the Harbor when buffing IZ lol. It's almost nonsensical given the other major adjacencies.

 

[acluewithout]

I honestly don't see why they forgot about the Harbor when buffing IZ lol. It's almost nonsensical given the other major adjacencies.

Yeah. I really am in too minds about this. I feel like the changes to the IZ don’t go far enough - if they were going to make it infrastructure focused, perhaps they should have gone all in, mostly getting rid of mines and quarries as boosts entire.

So, maybe you end up with something like:

• Industrial Zone. +0.5 from Lumbermills. +1 from Strategic Resources and any other Resource you can Mine or Quarry (eg Stone, Gypsum, Jade). +2 from Aqueducts, Canals, Dams, Harbours and other Industrial Zones.

Man. I’d really like to see the Patch Notes at this point. Like, really.

 

[acluewithout]

If anyone is interested, there’s a thread on reddit asking for Harbours to give a +2 adjacency to IZs. Link.

 

[Victoria]

If anyone is interested, there’s a thread on reddit asking for Harbours to give a +2 adjacency to IZs. Link.

Threads like that just misdirect for the fact that coasts are poor.
It is a valid request though, no transportation costs, just land the raw materials and build, and that would make an IZ less reliant on logistics and therefore possibly more productive.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

If anyone is interested, there’s a thread on reddit asking for Harbours to give a +2 adjacency to IZs. Link.

It wouldn't come into play all that often, but at least for flavor purposes harbors should probably get some kind of canal bonus too.

 

[Archon_Wing]

It's more of a flavor thing than balance. Much like canals and tunnels. (why does it take chemistry to build a tunnel)

 

[Laurana Kanan]

(why does it take chemistry to build a tunnel)

Nitroglycerin/Dynamite

 

[DanQuayle]

At the moment, I like the idea of Farms getting +1 food next to rivers after you research Irrigation (so the irrigation leaf tech feels more impactful)

I know you usually like to spit ball a lot of ideas, but let me just tell you that this one is terribly unbalanced. I am speaking from experience as this was one of the first little test mods that I made for practice.
With that change, Deity AIs could easily get 10 pop cities pre-Feudalism when they are settled near rivers (and I presume they were housing-locked). Also this test was made in conjunction with another tweak I made that reduced food from hills. This makes pure coastal cities (or all non-river cities for that matter) even worse in comparison. If you add in GS floods which can add 1 food to tiles adjacent to rivers, you can get a bare grassland tile with a farm at 5 food really early in the game. Also, add in marches, wheat, rice and watermill and food can quickly get out of control.
There is a reason why in civ5, you could only unlock this ability at Civil Service which was about the same time you now unlock Feudalism in civ6. If you combine both abilities, this produces a really high amount of food which would require changing the current food growth curve formula to balance.

 

[acluewithout]

I know you usually like to spit ball a lot of ideas, but let me just tell you that this one is terribly unbalanced. I am speaking from experience as this was one of the first little test mods that I made for practice.
With that change, Deity AIs could easily get 10 pop cities pre-Feudalism when they are settled near rivers (and I presume they were housing-locked). Also this test was made in conjunction with another tweak I made that reduced food from hills. This makes pure coastal cities (or all non-river cities for that matter) even worse in comparison. If you add in GS floods which can add 1 food to tiles adjacent to rivers, you can get a bare grassland tile with a farm at 5 food really early in the game. Also, add in marches, wheat, rice and watermill and food can quickly get out of control.
There is a reason why in civ5, you could only unlock this ability at Civil Service which was about the same time you now unlock Feudalism in civ6. If you combine both abilities, this produces a really high amount of food which would require changing the current food growth curve formula to balance.

Good point. I agree you might well be right, particularly given farms on rivers get buffs from flooding too. Maybe Farms on rivers could get +1.0 housing instead of +0.5 after irrigation. That could cause its own problems too. Once the patch comes out, I’m going to play around with some of these elements.

 

[cvb]

in conjunction with another tweak I made that reduced food from hills.

I'm toying around with that too, because grasslandsHillsMines has simply too much food (2-2-0), especially if also sugar/spice/citrus and/or (new) floodplains are available too.

Just removing 1 food from hills works good for grasslands, but gives problems to plains (too dry over all) - so I intent to add food to some flat plains via map script: wheat respectively marsh. Btw, this results in the same yields as in civ1 , because there were the standard yields grasslands (2-0-0) / grasslandsHills (1-1-0) / plains (1-1-0) / plainsHills (0-2-0) along with a special 'grasslands with curl' (2-1-0). Flat grasslands with extra production is like flat plains with extra food.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Threads like that just misdirect for the fact that coasts are poor.
It is a valid request though, no transportation costs, just land the raw materials and build, and that would make an IZ less reliant on logistics and therefore possibly more productive.

There are some pretty major historical examples too. Makes more sense than most adjacencies even.

 

[DanQuayle]

I'm toying around with that too, because grasslandsHillsMines has simply too much food (2-2-0), especially if also sugar/spice/citrus and/or (new) floodplains are available too.

Just removing 1 food from hills works good for grasslands, but gives problems to plains (too dry over all) - so I intent to add food to some flat plains via map script: wheat respectively marsh. Btw, this results in the same yields as in civ1 , because there were the standard yields grasslands (2-0-0) / grasslandsHills (1-1-0) / plains (1-1-0) / plainsHills (0-2-0) along with a special 'grasslands with curl' (2-1-0). Flat grasslands with extra production is like flat plains with extra food.

What's grassland with curl?
Otherwise, I had the same yield output from tiles during my tests.
Instead of altering map scripts, I planned to simply add more food to the granary at Irrigation and more production to the watermill, so that the player could decide how he wants to improve his starting terrain yield output.
But, I haven't really tested that yet.

 

[cvb]

To be exact, I should clarify, that only Brian Reynolds introduced in civ2 the modular terrains. In civ1 were just "hills" (ie. grasslandsHills), "woods" (ie. plainsWoods) ...

What's grassland with curl?

In civ1 the bonus resources were specific to the terrain types: horses on plains, fish on coast, gems on jungles, coal on hills, oil on swamps, oases on deserts etc. But grasslands had no bonus resource, instead some grasslands had "the curl"
Have a look: right hand from the (white) Phalanx is a swamp, above this swamp is a 'grasslands with curl', below this swamp is standard grasslands.

Spoiler :

Here the yields, viewable in city screen:

"grasslands with curl == plainsWheat"
Btw, the unimproved fish is 2-0-2; the 2 trade split in 1 gold & 1 science

Instead of altering map scripts, I planned to simply add more food to the granary at Irrigation and more production to the watermill, so that the player could decide how he wants to improve his starting terrain yield output.

I want to differentiate between grasslands (which I feel have to much food, especially mined hills) and plains (which I feel have to few food) ...

.

 

[DanQuayle]

Thanks for clarifying.
Civ1 is the only civ game I have absolutely no experience with.