Are Science and Religion Incompatible?

Are Science and Religion INcompatible?


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This might very probably be one of those things, but I read an interpretation that the Garden of Eden was a metaphor for humans discovering agriculture eliminating the need to go hunter-gathering.

Not sure how credible this is in theologian circles.
I would rather go for something trying to explain the evolutionary step which human being represent (without the author actualy being aware or have clear idea of evolution itself) in religious frame of thinking. Besides I have had a chance to work in my parents garden and it wasnt much of a paradise...


We developed reason, and as a result are capable of distinguishing between good and evil.
Yes but that wouldnt itself explained the idea of original sin. From spiritual point of view sin is just an experience. The difference between man and animal is the egoistic sense in aproaching the reality. When man identifies himself with ego he can conquer the wild nature for his own egoistic purpose and make further developments but this mental idea of ego can be a big problem when one wants to advance spiritualy.
 
I would rather go for something trying to explain the evolutionary step which human being represent (without the author actualy being aware or have clear idea of evolution itself) in religious frame of thinking.
This is the difficulty with interpreting religious text when one has an investment in it. You also have to take into account results which go against the preferred outcome. Might be one of the most difficult aspects of science.
Besides I have had a chance to work in my parents garden and it wasn't much of a paradise...
I bet if you have to spend the whole day looking for food and often come home empty handed as the hunter/gatherers did, the promise of sure yields of a field does sound like paradise. ;)

Until they have to shovel out the weeds of course.
 
True, but to quote everyone's favourite Atheist and evolutionist(warning: sarcasm): Why is just a silly question.
Then they are free to ignore it.

Religion doesn't ask. It tells you. Forcefully.
Fair enough, but I'd argue that's true mainly for people who are bad at it. And, yes, that means many (most?) of them. Perhaps a better way to say it is to use the modifier "attempts".

But, true, I don't think countries have ever gone to war over differing understandings of germ theory.
The idea that science only describes what happens is relatively new, I think it was positivists in the 19th century who came up with it (but may err a bit).

It's always hard to see something from perspective of other times, but even more with science because it's so fundamental to modern man, almost like a religion.
Except, as noted by fishjie and myself, debates over science haven't led to the same kind of destruction that religious ones have.

Well, for me, when we are discussing science, I am only using the recently modern understanding.
 
i personally lean agnostic, but IF there is a god AND there is such a thing as free will, then my concept of religion is like a parent explaining where a baby comes from to a 3 year old and then, the 3 year old tells his freinds and they write a Book about it....
 
Yes but that wouldnt itself explained the idea of original sin. From spiritual point of view sin is just an experience. The difference between man and animal is the egoistic sense in aproaching the reality. When man identifies himself with ego he can conquer the wild nature for his own egoistic purpose and make further developments but this mental idea of ego can be a big problem when one wants to advance spiritualy.

If I had to guess I'd say that the original sin is in the story for other theological reasons unrelated to what we were discussing.
 
Except, as noted by fishjie and myself, debates over science haven't led to the same kind of destruction that religious ones have.

Quantum physicists were willing to risk destroying the Earth with a Black Hole in order to settle a 'debate' between competing theories!
 
Well, for me, when we are discussing science, I am only using the recently modern understanding.
I'd argue that using religion as a basis for military action, as seen in the Crusades, is dumb, and that using science as a basis for social models, as seen with Eugenics and Social Darwinism, is dumb.
 
This is the difficulty with interpreting religious text when one has an investment in it. You also have to take into account results which go against the preferred outcome. Might be one of the most difficult aspects of science.
I certainly am inclined to see thing in spiritual light but we are discusing religius text here...
On the other hand we are talking about what we could call begining of civilization so there is of course many things which we are unaware of so we cant even take them in account.
For instance in India at around that time already existed spiritual texts, Vedas, which has contained not only spiritual mantras (incantations), rituals, but also mathematics, geology, astrology etc.
Thats also why I think science and religion can go easily together.

I bet if you have to spend the whole day looking for food and often come home empty handed as the hunter/gatherers did, the promise of sure yields of a field does sound like paradise. ;)

Until they have to shovel out the weeds of course.
Too bad that nobody has told that to Magyars and later Mongols who apparently finded their paradise in bothering large parts of Europe by their very unagricultural lifestyle. But then again the history would be less interesting...

If I had to guess I'd say that the original sin is in the story for other theological reasons unrelated to what we were discussing.
Quite possible and I am getting quite curious about it. But if the theology doesnt reflect some practical and natural phenomena then its not very usefull.
 
Quantum physicists were willing to risk destroying the Earth with a Black Hole in order to settle a 'debate' between competing theories!
lol, nice.
I'd argue that using religion as a basis for military action, as seen in the Crusades, is dumb, and that using science as a basis for social models, as seen with Eugenics and Social Darwinism, is dumb.
For social models, perhaps. But science can (and has, you're just focusing on the negative) inform policies that affect society. I think the key is to realize what Civil Rights or social goals are primary and then do your best to (imperfectly) to use science, or whatever tool you have at your disposal, to those ends.
 
I'd argue that using religion as a basis for military action, as seen in the Crusades, is dumb, and that using science as a basis for social models, as seen with Eugenics and Social Darwinism, is dumb.
You can use warior like spirit to conquer the lower nature.
Some religions have higher and lower path. The higher being the way of spreading illumination and the lower spreading your religion as a code of life to others by sword. It all realy depends on the inner maturity/development.

Quantum physicists were willing to risk destroying the Earth with a Black Hole in order to settle a 'debate' between competing theories!

Lets just wait and see when science will get as much space as religion in past ages. I am sure we are going to see lot of destruction.
It is not religion or science which destroy but unillumined humans using them as tools of destruction.
 
But even if we assume that the likes of Anselm and Aquinas are totally at odds with authentic ancient Christianity, they still massively influenced religious thought in the Europe from which science emerged.

Absolutely. A lot of modern developments today owe it to intellectually honest christians who were searching for the truth. Even Islam back then made contributions to math and science. But because philosophy and science do not bow down to fundamentalism, the people were/are willing to follow that road down to wherever it takes them. Hence during the enlightenment philosophers started to turn agnostic, a trend that hasn't been reversed. Even today philosophers who identify as christian aren't fundies, because that would be silly.

You need to look up the Christological/Tritanian debates. You'd be hard pressed to understand the differences between the various positions without a solid grounding in Greek thought. You should also when quoting understand the context behind the quotes. Luther couldn't have been sniping at science because it didn't exist. At a guess, though I can check, he was taking a swipe at the Catholic Church's belief that God can be known through reason alone; that is to say, that God could be known without faith. To put it in more modern terms, the Catholic Church believed that God's existence could be proved and that one need not believe in God to be sure of His existence. Luther though this was wrong and stressed that while God could be known through reason, that wasn't enough and one had to believe in Him as well. It's more complex than that... but that should suffice.

Well, if Luther believes "faith" is enough, and that rationalism and empiricism are not needed, then he is admitting that faith is irrational and has no evidence to back it. You might as well have faith in any of the thousands of other gods and deities that humans have invented, if you can't use reason or empirical evidence to determine which one is real.

And this is why faith is a horrible thing, and causes people to commit great evil and atrocity. Not questioning and exercising critical thinking is fail.
 
.Shane. said:
For social models, perhaps. But science can (and has, you're just focusing on the negative) inform policies that affect society. I think the key is to realize what Civil Rights or social goals are primary and then do your best to (imperfectly) to use science, or whatever tool you have at your disposal, to those ends
Fair enough. I'm just trying to say that ideas from both have potential for abuse.
Absolutely. A lot of modern developments today owe it to intellectually honest christians who were searching for the truth. Even Islam back then made contributions to math and science. But because philosophy and science do not bow down to fundamentalism, the people were/are willing to follow that road down to wherever it takes them. Hence during the enlightenment philosophers started to turn agnostic, a trend that hasn't been reversed. Even today philosophers who identify as christian aren't fundies, because that would be silly.
Well if you want to say that fundamentalism is incompatible with science, you'd probably have a point. You can't say the same about religion in general though.
 
Yes BUT not for the reasons one may think. I consider religion and science two sides of the same coin, legitimate ways of exploring the unknown. You can't scientifically measure love or desire or sadness, nor can you spiritually explain why the Earth revolves around the sun. It would be like trying to hammer a nail with a kitchen knife and trying to cut up onions with a hammer.
 
and that rationalism and empiricism are not needed, then he is admitting that faith is irrational and has no evidence to back it. You might as well have faith in any of the thousands of other gods and deities that humans have invented, if you can't use reason or empirical evidence to determine which one is real.
Why are we grouping reason and empirical evidence together? They're two fundamentally incompatible methods of knowledge.
 
Why are we grouping reason and empirical evidence together? They're two fundamentally incompatible methods of knowledge.

Of course and philosophers argued about rationalism vs empiricism all the time. I just found it funny that Luther would say reason is not enough, but instead of saying empiricism was the answer, he said faith, which is not a method to knowledge at all. So I read between the lines and what I take from that is that Luther, the founder of the Protestant sects of christianity, did not think rational thinking or empirical evidence could be used to find god.

Well if you want to say that fundamentalism is incompatible with science, you'd probably have a point. You can't say the same about religion in general though.

Science is a way of gaining knowledge by coming up with hypotheses and testing them. After being tested enough, they become theories, which can then be used to make predictions.

Religion relies on faith, which is the polar opposite of that system. Its incompatible. Faith requires presupposition. Even a liberal christian believes god exists and that god is good. They accept these things as fact first, without looking at the evidence or the arguments for/against. When confronted with things such as the "problem of evil" or the genocide in the bible, instead of looking at the evidence and coming up with the conclusion that the christian god is an awful spoiled brat, they instead argue things like "gods ways are above our own, who are we to question him? he is good!!!!" such an argument can only hold if you already believed god was good in the first place.

Why do all these believers have faith? Typically they had religious parents or they were converted at a young age before they could think critically. They are scared to give up this faith, often times because of the resulting ostracism and shunning from former friends and family. Also, for religions like christianity, they are worried about burning in hell for eternity, which is not a pleasant prospect.
 
Well if you want to say that fundamentalism is incompatible with science, you'd probably have a point. You can't say the same about religion in general though.

On the flip, religion can become formless enough to be meaningless. You can donate to charity and call yourself a Christian/Muslim/Hindu/Etc but not believe a single thing that I don't. Would that make you a Christian/Muslim/Hindu/Etc?

At the risk of getting flamed I'd say no.

Also, for religions like Christianity, they are worried about burning in hell for eternity, which is not a pleasant prospect.

I could never become a Christian. I've seen too many die that I know would be in hell by Christian reckoning, and I do *not* deserve and will *not* accept better than they got.

To allow myself to be whisked away to paradise while better men burned would be the ultimate immoral action.
 
Of course and philosophers argued about rationalism vs empiricism all the time. I just found it funny that Luther would say reason is not enough, but instead of saying empiricism was the answer, he said faith, which is not a method to knowledge at all.
Of course it's a method of knowledge, without it Empericism and Rationalism fall apart, because they're not self-supporting systems of knowledge. Moreover, Luther wasn't talking about the factual basis of God. His disputes were with the Catholic Church, so of course neither felt the need to prove the existence of God to the other.

He was talking about the matter of "What is required for human salvation?"
 
On the flip, religion can become formless enough to be meaningless.
Pretty much yeah. That's why the idea of religion and science being incompatible is nonsense. It's like asking if philosophy and science are compatible, or human culture and science. It's far to broad and nebulous to allow for meaningful discussion.

could never become a Christian. I've seen too many die that I know would be in hell by Christian reckoning, and I do *not* deserve and will *not* accept better than they got.

To allow myself to be whisked away to paradise while better men burned would be the ultimate immoral action.
Universal Reconciliation yo.
 
Universal Reconciliation yo.

If there's such a thing as Universal Reconciliation then I guess I'll see you all there.

I think it's just wishful thinking, personally. As an outsider looking in I don't think it's a clean read from the Bible.
 
Civ2, most of what you've posted here is such a steaming pile of non-logic that I'd assume you were just trolling us all, were it not all so consistent.

But for the sake of argument, lets look at your wonderful examples.

A very simple example:
You see a brick wall 0f 1000 bricks TODAY.
Everyday, during the past OBSERVED 500 days, a guy was coming and ADDING a brick to it.
Thus, you OBSERVABLY know, that 500 days ago the wall was 500 bricks high and it grew at the 1 brick/day STEADY rate.
Now, CAN you extrapolate it backwards, and say that this wall MUST be 1000 days old, with that same steady growth pace?
NO!
Cause on the day -501 someone BROUGHT a 500-brick wall and put it there!
Can you check it/ know it?
No way, you could only observe it since the NEXT day.

Not so! Brick walls have a few characteristics we can rely on to observe it's growth rate.

Consider the mortar in between the bricks. Generally speaking, the latter 500 bricks will be laid down in mortar of slightly different composition, since the mortar would dry out overnight, and thus needs to be remixed every day. The 500 bricks laid down in one day would presumably have the same mortar composition. The difference would be minute, but if you really wanted to, you could check it.

You can also observe the rate at which the bricks have weathered. The newer bricks will have suffered less environmental degradation. Since the bricks have been laid down day by day, you might even be able to see with your unaided eyes the order the bricks were laid down, as older bricks will fade in the sun, and be eroded by dust and water.

Even if the first 500 bricks were assembled 1 day at a time somewhere else, then moved to the location we are observing, there will be signs for those who look. The degradation suffered by those 500 bricks will be different from other bricks in the locality. They might have different compositions from other locally manufactured bricks if they were made far away. They might also be made with a different technique if they were made far away, or long ago. Same goes for the mortar in this case.

This is a particularly interesting example, since this is an exercise that anthropologists actually do from time to time. They can examine ruined walled towns, and ball park the rate at which town walls were built. Newer walls will use new materials and techniques, and generally be built in layers. Older walls will be more degraded. Demolished walls will leave tell tale signs in the earth they once compressed.

Another example:
You see a huge tree.
You know the rate of tree growth.
Can you be SURE, that this tree was PLANTED here at your calculated time?
Again, NO!
Maybe it was brought here already mature and then replanted.
Can you check that?
Again and again, NO!

Actually, yes! If a tree is transplanted, there will be tell tale signs if you look hard enough. Looking at the growth rings will tell you the rate at which it grew, but also the type of soil it grew in, and the rough composition of that soil. The soil at its prior location would likely be different from the soil at this current location, and you'll at the very least observe the discontinuity.

You could also compare the growth rings with growth rings from trees in it's current areas. If the later half of the rings agree, but our tree's earlier rings don't agree with local trees, then that's a good sign it used to live somewhere else.

You could also dig up the roots and check for damage. Moving a mature tree typically involves severing the longer roots, since they can't be practically excavated or transported. Cutting them will damage them, and leave the equivalent of human scarring. If all of it's roots were scarred like that, that would be a good sign it had been moved.


You see how easy it is? I've made hypotheses about the origins of the tree and the wall. And I'm not even a tree or wall expert. Now we can do real science by going and looking for evidence the hypotheses suggest. If you find that evidence, odds are the tree or wall were once moved whole. If you can't find any, then odds are it's just a tree or wall that slowly grew/was built there. The point is, since you've questioned the origin of those things, we don't just have to blindly accept one hypothesis. We can make more and search for evidence of those too.

Leo
Well, not surprised TOO MUCH...
You are just another product of the same scientification dogma. :lol:

This here is your whole problem. You everyone here disagreeing with you as conforming to one great dogma. Any new person who did so you'd accuse of following the same dogma. But really we all share pretty different views about religion and science. We do all agree about things like evolution, the origin of the earth, gravity, relativity and such, but that's just because there's all the evidence in the world to suggest these things are correct, and no evidence to disprove them.

1. I'm not artificially making up distinctions, I'm using the same scientific method: "unproved until proved".
And for that, we must have solid proof, and the most solid one, is HUMAN OBSERVATION.

Once again, you betray yourself. Science's proof's go way beyond human observation. Take for example the electron. Surely you'd agree they exist, since so much is built up on their existence and our knowledge about how they behave. Yet nobody has ever actually seen an electron, because that's impossible. They're simply too small. We can get other objects to interact with them, and then observe those other objects, but you'll never, ever, ever see an electron with your own eyes.

Quantum physicists were willing to risk destroying the Earth with a Black Hole in order to settle a 'debate' between competing theories!

:lol: Well played sir.
 
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