Are you Politically Correct?

[Birdjaguar]

Babywearing is tying your baby in a sling on your back, or sometimes front I guess. Those who are concerned about such issues don’t tend to object to white women babywearing in itself but if they look like they might be selling vegetables in an outdoor market in South America then it causes offense.

My wife did that for both our kids in the 80s.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I don't think this is about pc any more, its about civility now.
Yes, you can't always tell what someone else will find offensive and that isn't neccessarily your fault, although a little commonsense helps work out what is likely to offend, but if you've been told someone finds something offensive and you continue to use it don't be surprised when you get a hostile response.
Civility is what allows very different people to live in the same society without conflict.

Or even in the same household. After several weeks of my dad's girlfriend going out of her way to be rude, I finally told her, "I know you don't like me, but as long as you live here, you will use 'excuse me, 'please', and 'thank you' to me, and if you want to come into the house (she was living in a trailer in the back yard and hanging out in my dad's garage apartment), you will knock first."

Amazing that I had to tell this to a woman 20 years older than me.

@ Valka. I'm too tired (and frankly, outnumbered) to respond to this much anymore, but as far as calling an employer (male or female) that word, obviously I wouldn't say it right to their face.

And you're not concerned that it would get back to them anyway?

Recently I’ve come across a blog where someone complains that the babywearing community is rife with cultural appropriation and an article about how vital it was for the author to have a trans doula of color help them navigate microagressions and racism while they was pregnant.

Someone needs to explain to that person that baby slings have been around for thousands of years, on every continent except Antarctica, and even there the male penguins carry their offspring around on the tops of their feet until they hatch.

Babywearing is tying your baby in a sling on your back, or sometimes front I guess. Those who are concerned about such issues don’t tend to object to white women babywearing in itself but if they look like they might be selling vegetables in an outdoor market in South America then it causes offense.

My wife did that for both our kids in the 80s.

Your wife sold vegetables in an outdoor market in South America, while carrying your kids in a sling?

 

[caketastydelish]

And you're not concerned that it would get back to them anyway?

It would entirely depend on who I tell it to.

 

[NovaKart]

The thing some people got offended over was mothers who babywear while wearing African or Indigenous Latin American prints.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

It would entirely depend on who I tell it to.

Different philosophies. If I say "___________ is a ________" to anyone I pretty much immediately go to that person and tell them "I just called you a ______. Figured you should know."

 

[Farm Boy]

I cannot imagine any gravid woman caring about the specific identity of her doula in advising her future baby sling prints and having time to blog about it has to devote any percent of life's worry to something trivial as money.

 

[Arwon]

I don't think this is about pc any more, its about civility now.
Yes, you can't always tell what someone else will find offensive and that isn't neccessarily your fault, although a little commonsense helps work out what is likely to offend, but if you've been told someone finds something offensive and you continue to use it don't be surprised when you get a hostile response.
Civility is what allows very different people to live in the same society without conflict.

Almost like they're kinda the same thing. A big part of what gets called "political correctness" is just learning what is actually civil and polite, but with people who aren't your nanna.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Almost like they're kinda the same thing. A big part of what gets called "political correctness" is just learning what is actually civil and polite, but with people who aren't your nanna.

Well, the lack of them certainly seems like the same thing. The opponents of political correctness almost invariably seem like what they really want is a license to abandon civility without suffering any consequence.

 

[Akka]

I think USians lack imagination. We use F bombs for everything, mostly. Just randomly thrown in between words, and under stress maybe between syllables.

I can't help but share this piece, because even on this side of the Atlantic we noticed the same thing and made fun of it.

Spoiler Warning : language :

Of course, half of the jokes are with the subtitles, but hey, it still fits.

 

[Farm Boy]

Bah, certain places have no imagination. And loathe be I to stand up for them, there is a lot to be done with intonation, pacing, and body language.

 

[AdamCrock]

Of course, half of the jokes are with the subtitles, but hey, it still fits.

Which reminds me of a funny commercials "why it is important to learn foreign languages" ! (warrning - explicit language - watch at Your own discretion )

My favourite is the second one "what are you sinking about"

 

[Truthy]

Almost like they're kinda the same thing. A big part of what gets called "political correctness" is just learning what is actually civil and polite, but with people who aren't your nanna.

I think this is missing the heart of the issue.

You can say political correctness is just civility (wrt to issues of identity and whatnot). Almost everyone likes civility, so if political correctness is just civility, clearly no one should dislike political correctness! Yet, here we are; the vast majority of the US population, regardless of ethnicity, gender, and so on, dislikes political correctness (what does the term even mean? It doesn't really matter as I'll try to explain in a sec). But I'm quite sure they're not opposed to civility.

Obviously, the issue is everyone has differing notions of what constitutes civility. And most of us perceive "political correctness" as being (most of) the difference between our notions of civility and some other set of notions of civility. I.e., something imposed by your school or job or "society" or whatever.

Alright, so I'm guessing you propose a bunch of things that comprise a better civility than what most people subscribe to; just because most people think they're being civil, doesn't mean they are. That's all fine and well. I think it's civil to call people by their preferred pronouns and so on.

But most of us encounter quite a few notions of civility that we just don't think matter or should be required for civility. And many of us can justify that some idea of civility is dumb or excessive or conflicts with reality. One of my hobby horses is evo psyche. I firmly believe evo psyche provides very accurate explanations for a lot of things. But it pisses off a lot of people. I think almost everyone would agree evo psyche is not PC. Proclaim all you want that political correctness is basically synonymous with civility, but it doesn't matter to me vis-a-vis evo psyche. I think evo psyche is awesome and that believing in it shouldn't contradict civility. And there's the rub. Most people despise political correctness because they have some firm opinion they perceive as being not PC. Whether it's evo psyche, irritation at weird pronouns (as we've seen expressed by people in this thread who I'd consider civil), or wanting to just say "alcoholic" instead of "person suffering from alcoholism."

Frankly, this kind of effort to define political correctness isn't achieving anything. Opposition to political correctness is all about the real gulfs between notions of good and bad thinking/behavior. Americans of every demographic find a way to be miffed by this problem. Your approach is to define the problem away by claiming, actually, there is no gulf if you're a good person. Actually, there usually is.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Well, the lack of them certainly seems like the same thing. The opponents of political correctness almost invariably seem like what they really want is a license to abandon civility without suffering any consequence.

This is literally the case with people who continue to deadname and refuse to use trans peoples pronouns, it's nothing more than maliciousness and punching down on an already vulnerable group.

I just want to make this clear; if you deadname and refuse to use the correct pronouns intentionally, not accidently, you (not you personally tim) are a bad person and you should be called out for what you are.

It's not about being politically correct, it's about not denying the humanity and dignity of a group of people in society that already have to deal with the stigma of being trans.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

You can say political correctness is just civility (wrt to issues of identity and whatnot). Almost everyone likes civility, so if political correctness is just civility, clearly no one should dislike political correctness! Yet, here we are; the vast majority of the US population, regardless of ethnicity, gender, and so on, dislikes political correctness (what does the term even mean? It doesn't really matter as I'll try to explain in a sec). But I'm quite sure they're not opposed to civility.

Obviously, the issue is everyone has differing notions of what constitutes civility. And most of us perceive "political correctness" as being (most of) the difference between our notions of civility and some other set of notions of civility. I.e., something imposed by your school or job or "society" or whatever.

People intentionally deadname and use the wrong pronouns, not as a matter of mere 'difference of opinion" but as a way of socially shaming and inflicting pain upon transpeople. It's no different from refusing to no longer use slurs when it comes to POC, LGB people, people from differing religions etc and i am tired of people trying to claim otherwise.

Whilst you can shame people in a civil and productive way, you cannot do so with the latter.

 

[Truthy]

People intentionally deadname and use the wrong pronouns, not as a matter of mere 'difference of opinion" but as a way of socially shaming and inflicting pain upon transpeople. It's no different from refusing to no longer use slurs when it comes to POC, LGB people, people from differing religions etc and i am tired of people trying to claim otherwise.

Whilst you can shame people in a civil and productive way, you cannot do so with the latter.

This is all true

 

[Narz]

Recently I’ve come across a blog where someone complains that the babywearing community is rife with cultural appropriation and an article about how vital it was for the author to have a trans doula of color help them navigate microagressions and racism while they was pregnant.

I suspect right-wing trolls write many of these type of blogs just to see if people fall for it. Just like this left wing guy made up a bunch of crazy fake news to see if right wingers fell for it.

 

[Narz]

Well, the lack of them certainly seems like the same thing. The opponents of political correctness almost invariably seem like what they really want is a license to abandon civility without suffering any consequence.

Civility is being civil. It has nothing to do w keeping up w lingo. Using the word server instead of waitor/waitress does not make one more civil.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

One of my hobby horses is evo psyche.

Definition required, please.

wanting to just say "alcoholic" instead of "person suffering from alcoholism."

My parents were both alcoholics. The whole family ended up suffering as a result. Even on the forum here, someone once got somewhat offended when I said I don't drink - never have, and never will. He started to understand a tiny bit when I explained about my parents, and that I was afraid I might end up like them. I never wanted to give myself the chance to find out. He kept saying, "No, you'd be fine, you're strong-willed..." but the fact is that I don't know that.. It's too dangerous to experiment with, and by the time I found out (in the case of it being true), my life would be ruined.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Civility is being civil. It has nothing to do w keeping up w lingo. Using the word server instead of waitor/waitress does not make one more civil.

In some cases it does have to do with keeping up with lingo. Some racial and sexual slurs used to be considered civil, now they rightly aren't.
But the specific case where I said it was about civility, not PC, was in response to it being said that it was ok nowadays to call women b****es and that people who objected to that were out of date.

 

[Patine]

Definition required, please.


My parents were both alcoholics. The whole family ended up suffering as a result. Even on the forum here, someone once got somewhat offended when I said I don't drink - never have, and never will. He started to understand a tiny bit when I explained about my parents, and that I was afraid I might end up like them. I never wanted to give myself the chance to find out. He kept saying, "No, you'd be fine, you're strong-willed..." but the fact is that I don't know that.. It's too dangerous to experiment with, and by the time I found out (in the case of it being true), my life would be ruined.

I don't drink and never have either, but for different reasons. Neither of my parents were alcoholics, or really drank much at all (I don't think I ever saw my father drink that I personally witnessed), though I did have an alcoholic stepfather, but my mother was only married to him for several years, and I was already an adult when my mother was married to him (though my youngest brother, who was still living with them at the time, almost to came to blows with him a few times). Somehow, I just programmed myself in how "utterly stupid," drinking, smoking (tobacco or marijuana), and using street drugs was, and, since I tend to naturally deride "stupidity," (many of my other posts on the OT subforum can attest to that), it served as to make these things repulsive, not tempting, to me.