Are you Politically Correct?

[rah]

I will say that your example doesn't fully encompass how important something as fundamental as gender/assumed gender, being misgender even unintentionally, can and does have negative effects on transpeople, far beyond just getting hit on. If society constantly misgenders you, that will have a big impact upon your personal mental, emotional and even physical well being.

Sorry, as close as I'm going to get so can't possibly identify perfectly with the issue.
And yeah Tim they don't always remember but I don't make a big deal because I don't want to embarrass the friends I'm out with.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I understand that, i'm just pointing out the consequences of deadnaming and refusing to use pronouns are somewhat different from being hit on by people of the same gender.

Edit:

Would being hit on by a guy make you consider suicide or self harm? I know deadnaming and misgendering does for transpeople in general. The stakes aren't equivalent, one is an annoyance, the other is a matter of how society and people in general view and treat you and all the baggage that comes with it.

 

[Berzerker]

no gay guys ever hit on me

that'd be the least of my problems

 

[AmazonQueen]

Can You be more specific ? Have the meaning of offensive words changed as well ? Honestly I wish to learn more of it before (if ever but You never know) I undertake my journey to the great beyond (England). Speaking of correctness - once there I do not wish to be out of line - so to speak . Any knowledge about what words I can use and which I ought to avoid will be much appreciated.

oh and btw.

Spoiler TNETENNBA :

One example is that the first use of the word transgender is dated to the early 70s. Its largely replace the word transsexual which is first recorded in 1957.
Lots of words that were in common use when I was young are now considered offensive, especially relating to race and sexuality.

I'd hope that people in the UK would be understanding towards a person whose first language isn't English.
Some guidelines on communicating with disabled people https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...o-use-and-avoid-when-writing-about-disability

 

[Arwon]

My parents were both alcoholics. The whole family ended up suffering as a result. Even on the forum here, someone once got somewhat offended when I said I don't drink - never have, and never will. He started to understand a tiny bit when I explained about my parents, and that I was afraid I might end up like them. I never wanted to give myself the chance to find out. He kept saying, "No, you'd be fine, you're strong-willed..." but the fact is that I don't know that.. It's too dangerous to experiment with, and by the time I found out (in the case of it being true), my life would be ruined.

And while we're at it, the idea that alcohol use disorder is a matter of "will" is harmful as hell, both on a personal and a clinical level.

 

[Old Hippy]

I understand that, i'm just pointing out the consequences of deadnaming and refusing to use pronouns are somewhat different from being hit on by people of the same gender.

I only ever asked one transgender person how should I refer to you
'she' said ''Cici''... the irony is that i was volunteering at a Community housing Project where Cici was a manager
my 'job' was to back her up if there was any trouble at our fortnightly free dinners to encourage more social interaction
our running joke was Cici saying '' don't worry if there is any problems, I will protect you' ... I felt safe
as Cici pointed out... i would not use a pronoun to refer to 'her' in her presence... only when talking about 'her' to other people
if I used CIci's name ... it was a non issue
Cici now works for a different organisation... I miss our comradery

 

[Birdjaguar]

You don't "buy into it" because it's not as easy as your lazy, sloppy, uneducated, counter-productive, and ruinous terminology that sabotages and KILLS your points and credence. A Neo-Manichaean over-simplification is not an "evolution," socio-politically - it is a regression, and it does more harm than you may think or admit. You may think, like so many, it's "alright" or it "doesn't matter," - but that's not at all true. You're just deceiving and deluding yourself so you don't have to change - a big problem self-help gurus speak in a much more general sense about.



That's not quite correct. People have more "education" because it's free and mandatory in a far greater amount of the world to far more people than before, and information is more readily available (a la, the Internet, though it's not entirely reliable, unless you weigh many different sources against each other). But it may shock you to know that children and adolescents today, and many 20-something adults when they were in school, are not receiving the same comprehensive degree of reasoning, constructive and critical thinking, and problem-solving skills being taught that I did as in school in the '80's/very early '90's, and I believe you've implied you're schools day even earlier. Also, when I was in school, cell phones, other than the immensely expensive and one-purpose (to make phonecalls) "the brick" didn't exist yet, and we only computers in two classes - a "computer" class and a typing class - they were not in ANY other classroom. An anthropologist working with a psychologist estimates, on average, a person of similar or analogous circumstances in the Victorian era had several points of IQ HIGHER - and several points HIGHER still over them by those living in Ancient Hellenic times. So, while "education" - in terms of the raw act of filling your brain with knowledge - has increased, yes, I believe how well and constructively people THINK is obviously declining.

So you are using contemporary IQ scores and fabricated ones from 150 years ago and even more fabricated ones from 2500 years ago to say that people today are more stupid than those of the past? You mention in your first sentence about the unreliability of data about world education and yet a few sentences later you claim that Ancient Greeks were "smarter" than us today because an anthropologist says so. I would suggest that such talk calls your own reasoning skills into question.

This was your post I originally took objection to:

The anti-intellectualization and stupification of so much of the population is a far greater problem and destructive element in the world today than ANY single socio-political ideology, economic system, religion (even in their greatest extremes and corruption of original message and meaning), "terrorist" group, or national agenda.

Essentially, you are saying that poor education is a bigger problem than anything else. Later [above] you refined that to be critical thinking skills etc. It is hard to argue against the importance of better education; and the world is certainly better educated now than in the past. But it is very hard to be better educated in a Taliban run Afghanistan or Maduro run Venezuela. How about a school where active shooter drills are part of the curriculum? And we should not forget the separate and unequal schools of the 1950s US. Or how about a 2019 US where science is denied and Ark theme parks are subsidized by the state.

IQ tests seem to be a particularly bad way to measure someone's ability to think or reason their way through a problem.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2011/04/what-does-iq-really-measure

https://www.medicaldaily.com/iq-tes...ental-abilities-something-you-cant-put-297244

 

[Patine]

So you are using contemporary IQ scores and fabricated ones from 150 years ago and even more fabricated ones from 2500 years ago to say that people today are more stupid than those of the past? You mention in your first sentence about the unreliability of data about world education and yet a few sentences later you claim that Ancient Greeks were "smarter" than us today because an anthropologist says so. I would suggest that such talk calls your own reasoning skills into question.

This was your post I originally took objection to:


Essentially, you are saying that poor education is a bigger problem than anything else. Later [above] you refined that to be critical thinking skills etc. It is hard to argue against the importance of better education; and the world is certainly better educated now than in the past. But it is very hard to be better educated in a Taliban run Afghanistan or Maduro run Venezuela. How about a school where active shooter drills are part of the curriculum? And we should not forget the separate and unequal schools of the 1950s US. Or how about a 2019 US where science is denied and Ark theme parks are subsidized by the state.

IQ tests seem to be a particularly bad way to measure someone's ability to think or reason their way through a problem.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2011/04/what-does-iq-really-measure

https://www.medicaldaily.com/iq-tes...ental-abilities-something-you-cant-put-297244

But you are still ignoring the shortcomings of the modern educational system in MAJOR FIRST WORLD countries that are a big part of the equation. If the emphasis on critical and constructive thinking, problem solving, rationalism, etc. is supplanted with just raw knowledge intake and using computers to perform all mathematics and science processes we did with pencil and paper (most teenagers and young adults cannot do math beyond simple grade 2 arithmetic with a computer, cellphone, electronic store till, or other device capable of calculator performance, I kid you not), and not be taught to understand the significance and context of what they're learning and why (and yes - these are apparently marked changes in educational curriculli, apparently, since I was in school, at least), the problem I arises because the tendency of thinking, reasoning, and deciphering information independently and constructively criticizing and questioning what one takes in is FAR diminished and weaker, and lies, myths, convenient non-truths, revised history, grossly improper terminology, and propaganda because far easier to just accept than to scrutinize and analyze for any sort of validity.

 

[Narz]

I don't drink and never have either, but for different reasons. Neither of my parents were alcoholics, or really drank much at all (I don't think I ever saw my father drink that I personally witnessed), though I did have an alcoholic stepfather, but my mother was only married to him for several years, and I was already an adult when my mother was married to him (though my youngest brother, who was still living with them at the time, almost to came to blows with him a few times). Somehow, I just programmed myself in how "utterly stupid," drinking, smoking (tobacco or marijuana), and using street drugs was, and, since I tend to naturally deride "stupidity," (many of my other posts on the OT subforum can attest to that), it served as to make these things repulsive, not tempting, to me.

Intense disgust is a good motivator to not try stupid things (like cigarettes & alcohol) but if you've already began it's not so good (because it leads to shame which is less useful). I let my daughter know I think smoking is repulsive (both in words & by keeping physical distance while people are smoking around us). Smoking is both disgusting and disrespectful to others within 20 feet of you.

 

[Birdjaguar]

But you are still ignoring the shortcomings of the modern educational system in MAJOR FIRST WORLD countries that are a big part of the equation. If the emphasis on critical and constructive thinking, problem solving, rationalism, etc. is supplanted with just raw knowledge intake and using computers to perform all mathematics and science processes we did with pencil and paper (most teenagers and young adults cannot do math beyond simple grade 2 arithmetic with a computer, cellphone, electronic store till, or other device capable of calculator performance, I kid you not), and not be taught to understand the significance and context of what they're learning and why (and yes - these are apparently marked changes in educational curriculli, apparently, since I was in school, at least), the problem I arises because the tendency of thinking, reasoning, and deciphering information independently and constructively criticizing and questioning what one takes in is FAR diminished and weaker, and lies, myths, convenient non-truths, revised history, grossly improper terminology, and propaganda because far easier to just accept than to scrutinize and analyze for any sort of validity.

OK. If it is such an urgent issue, above all others, why aren't you an elementary school teacher?

I was an elementary teacher for 10 years way back when; the problems with education haven't changed. Better schools tend to have better teachers. If you want better education for all, hire better teachers and pay them more.

 

[Patine]

OK. If it is such an urgent issue, above all others, why aren't you an elementary school teacher?

Because I personally lack the patience. I will come out clean and admit to my weakness there. I do not have the patience or temperament to teach elementary, myself. That does not mean I don't believe great improvement is not needed or shouldn't be priority to be worked on however.

 

[Arwon]

I find it interesting how often these rants about the hideous decline of education and language are just so uninspiring, just in terms of the quality and flow of the prose. Like, you're not really making a strong case to be appointed judge and jury on such matters.

 

[bernie14]

@Patine ....is english your first language?

Moderator Action: No trolling. --LM
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Lemon Merchant]

To further illustrate Rah's point about getting hit upon, let's play a little game called "What is Lemon thinking?"

The scene is a dimly lit nightclub with loud music and lots of people dancing...

(see my thoughts in brackets)

Man: Hello there.
LM: Hi. (Uh-oh)
Man: You come here often?
LM: Once in a while. I like the music. (I'll be civil, maybe he's a nice man and we can chat for a while.)
Man: Maybe you'd like to dance then?
LM: No thanks, I'm waiting for someone. (Hmmm. Maybe not. Hope he buys that one)
Man: Aw c'mon. You can dance a little till they get here.
LM: No, but thank you for asking. (Crap, he didn't take the hint.)
Man: You sure? I'm a good dancer. You might even like me better than your friend who isn't here.
LM: Thanks, but no. I'm a lesbian. (Ok, dropped the L-Bomb, let's see if it works.)
Man: Hell, I can fix that.
LM: No, you can't. (Jesus, why can't they just take the hint?)
Man: Spend a little time with me and you won't be gay no more.
LM: Conversation over. (Why, oh why?)
Man: Uppity lesbo b****!
LM: <silence> (Do I have to call security?)

And this happens more than one might think. If I tell you I play for the other team, then leave it at that. If I approach a woman and she's not a lesbian, then fine. I thank her for telling me and I leave it at that. What is so hard about respecting people's boundaries?

Another thought:

Misgendering someone can happen very easily. In my life I have met a number of women, who despite their best efforts, have looked like male cross dressers. I can see how easily one of these women could be misgendered. It happens. It's unfortunate, but it's usually not intentional and it's an experience you learn from. When I hear someone freak out and scream "Did you just assume my gender?" I feel like saying "Yeah, I did. Now shut up and quit broadcasting it." If I am wrong, tell me and I won't do it again, but don't throw a tantrum because you look like a man with long hair and I'm somehow supposed to psychically know that you identify as female.

If you are determined to feel that I should be politically correct, please be polite in explaining why. Just like I am usually polite when explaining that I play for the other team. Good manners works for everything.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

To further illustrate Rah's point about getting hit upon, let's play a little game called "What is Lemon thinking?"

The scene is a dimly lit nightclub with loud music and lots of people dancing...

(see my thoughts in brackets)

Man: Hello there.
LM: Hi. (Uh-oh)
Man: You come here often?
LM: Once in a while. I like the music. (I'll be civil, maybe he's a nice man and we can chat for a while.)
Man: Maybe you'd like to dance then?
LM: No thanks, I'm waiting for someone. (Hmmm. Maybe not. Hope he buys that one)
Man: Aw c'mon. You can dance a little till they get here.
LM: No, but thank you for asking. (Crap, he didn't take the hint.)
Man: You sure? I'm a good dancer. You might even like me better than your friend who isn't here.
LM: Thanks, but no. I'm a lesbian. (Ok, dropped the L-Bomb, let's see if it works.)
Man: Hell, I can fix that.
LM: No, you can't. (Jesus, why can't they just take the hint?)
Man: Spend a little time with me and you won't be gay no more.
LM: Conversation over. (Why, oh why?)
Man: Uppity lesbo b****!
LM: <silence> (Do I have to call security?)

And this happens more than one might think. If I tell you I play for the other team, then leave it at that. If I approach a woman and she's not a lesbian, then fine. I thank her for telling me and I leave it at that. What is so hard about respecting people's boundaries? Misgendering someone can happen very easily. In my life I have met a number of women, who despite their best efforts, have looked like male cross dressers. I can see how easily one of these women could be misgendered. It happens. It's unfortunate, but it's usually not intentional and it's an experience you learn from. When I hear someone freak out and scream "Did you just assume my gender?" I feel like saying "Yeah, I did. Now shut up and quit broadcasting it." If I am wrong, tell me and I won't do it again, but don't throw a tantrum because you look like a man with long hair and I'm somehow supposed to psychically know that you identify as female.

If you are determined to feel that I should be politically correct, please be polite in explaining why. Just like I am usually polite when explaining that I play for the other team. Good manners works for everything.

Tim's suggested response:

Tell you what, it might not be my preferred toy but you put that thing in my hand and I'll show you something you've never seen...the other end...go ahead and get it out here.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Tim's suggested response:

Tell you what, it might not be my preferred toy but you put that thing in my hand and I'll show you something you've never seen...the other end...go ahead and get it out here.

I'll have to remember that one.

 

[bernie14]

@Patine, its an honest question, i ask about your language because of your prose and grammar. it seems some people find your lack of ability to communicate in anglophile, uninspired. Of course, there is some prejudice involved, not only on the part of @Arwon ....

 

[Birdjaguar]

@Patine.... it seems some people find your lack of ability to communicate in anglophile, uninspired.

Your use of a double negative is confusing.

 

[bernie14]

Well. English is not my first language...

 

[Patine]

@Patine, its an honest question, i ask about your language because of your prose and grammar. it seems some people find your lack of ability to communicate in anglophile, uninspired. Of course, there is some prejudice involved, not only on the part of @Arwon ....

That's not correct at all. English is my first language, and my fluency, under ideal circumstances, is worthy of a novelist. It's just that, my worst written posts (often on contentious topics on forums like, and including, the OT sub-forum on CivFanatics), are written when I'm in an emotional state - like someone delivering a passionate sermon or stump speech - and also in haste, and since I'm typing, not speaking, my grammar tends to suffer.