Arioch's Analyst Thread

[Dragoner]

What's that Great Scientist supposed to be sitting in? Some sort of blue velvet bong-mobile?

I think on sometype of steam car, like the Fardier à Vapeur from Nicolas Cugnot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas-Joseph_Cugnot

 

[Algeroth]

Huh? That's not the picture I linked.

I've never said it is.

You linked this one And i can't find there the iron.

Spoiler :

 

[Mercade]

How close can you get to a Citadel? This game has a great zoom in...

 

[PinkHammurabi]

I've never said it is.

You linked this one And i can't find there the iron.

Spoiler :

The city in the lower-left hand corner has a tile just north of it with a Mine and Iron resource on grassland.

 

[King Jason]

I should have been a little more clear I guess. Streamlining the game and shielding players from ever having negative experiences in the game strikes me as the "everyone's a winner so everyone gets a gold medal" type of thing. That is one of my worst fears for the game. The game itself appears to be sufficiently complex for myself and most people.

So not as much "dumbing down" as "babying the player".

I can understand that, but I personally think that (in keeping with the specific topic) the removal of wonder expirations makes the choice to build them more meaningful and impactful.

I don't think it's the "gold medal" philosophy because there are many wonders or situations where the practicality of building it becomes moot to a player given the concept that it's effect is limited. Why spend 20 turns building X wonder and have it expire when I can spend 20 turns building an army that I can one day upgrade. Or 20 turns building 2-3 building that will have a lasting effect on the city/empire.

With making wonders a permanent effect on your game, ala social policies, you offer a greater amount of consideration as to whether people would want to build said wonder. At least imo.

Further, it does cater to the novice, while not necessarily meaning it lacks strategy. The choice of that army, or those couple of buildings Vs. a meaningful game-spanning effect is still a meaningful consideration for the veteran; but for the Novice, who may not think to gauge that a wonder (in civ4's terms) would only be around for X period of time... not doesn't need to worry about that burden.

I don't think it removes and amount of thinking for the Veteran since it's all second nature to him anyway. Now the choices are simply different. Rather than him deciding between XX ways to utilize production Vs. going with a short-term benefit they know hot to use, they now choose between XX ways and a long-term game benefit.

 

[Algeroth]

The city in the lower-left hand corner has a tile just north of it with a Mine and Iron resource on grassland.

Ha. You have beeter eyes then I. Thanks!

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Porcelain Tower gives +2 science for every specialist in the empire. Those Chinese wonders really rock.
I hope there'll be victoy videos. Only one screen per victory wold be disappointing but at least the planet looks like it's covered in fungus.

 

[AriochIV]

Also, not sure if this has been mentioned or noticed on previous screenshots but according to the below screenshot, mine-able resources can appear on flatland and would be in direct contrast to "mines can only be built on hills". You can see iron on grassland here:

I noticed this, and it's really the same as in Civ IV: mines can be built on any appropriate resource, regardless of where it is, but if you just want to built a mine by itself for +production, it has to be on a hill.

Between the academies in the frozen hexes is an academy-like improvement that grants 4 gold. Could it be the Great Merchant's special improvement?

Yep, I think that's the Customs House.

 

[Sonereal]

I can understand that, but I personally think that (in keeping with the specific topic) the removal of wonder expirations makes the choice to build them more meaningful and impactful.

Actually, wonder expiration is probably what makes wonders meaningful. Sure, on faster game speeds they're not all powerful but on slower speeds, they are. It doesn't make sense for a wonder to keep all its effects forever. Culture? Yes. GP points? Probably.

I don't think it's the "gold medal" philosophy because there are many wonders or situations where the practicality of building it becomes moot to a player given the concept that it's effect is limited. Why spend 20 turns building X wonder and have it expire when I can spend 20 turns building an army that I can one day upgrade. Or 20 turns building 2-3 building that will have a lasting effect on the city/empire.

Because the effects of a lot of wonders are extremely helpful and last most of the game anyway? Oracle and Stonehenge for starters.

With making wonders a permanent effect on your game, ala social policies, you offer a greater amount of consideration as to whether people would want to build said wonder. At least imo.

No it doesn't. It makes the game less strategic since there would be no reason not to build a wonder in most cases unless you're at war or something.

Further, it does cater to the novice, while not necessarily meaning it lacks strategy. The choice of that army, or those couple of buildings Vs. a meaningful game-spanning effect is still a meaningful consideration for the veteran; but for the Novice, who may not think to gauge that a wonder (in civ4's terms) would only be around for X period of time... not doesn't need to worry about that burden.

You're making it sound like a Wonder's effects last only 10 or so turns.

I don't think it removes and amount of thinking for the Veteran since it's all second nature to him anyway. Now the choices are simply different. Rather than him deciding between XX ways to utilize production Vs. going with a short-term benefit they know hot to use, they now choose between XX ways and a long-term game benefit.

If everything is a long-term benefit, wonders aren't strategic. Not to mention that wonders don't last only 20 turns unless you're building them late/playing on a faster speed.

 

[King Jason]

I just used random numbers as it's all relative. 20 turns vs 1000 turns in reference to what you're otherwise able to produce is entirely relative.

I play obscenely long games, personally.

and again,

No it doesn't. It makes the game less strategic since there would be no reason not to build a wonder in most cases unless you're at war or something.

Sure there would, because you might put that 1000 turns of unit production to better use than +2 science to every citizen.

In fact I would again argue the opposite, that permanent wonder effects become more meaningful with longer speeds.

 

[Algeroth]

Hot linking doesn't work. Do you have high-res version of the screenshots available? I clicked on the link but can only get tiny pictures where I can't read anything.

If you click on the "Isompi kuva" button in lower rigt corner, it will open the picture in new tab. It will be beigger and readable, but not HD.

 

[Mercade]

Now that's one cool Great Artist

And the side and rear end of Naresuan's Elephant, plus a sneak at a Siam city near the elephant:

 

[Sonereal]

Sure there would, because you might put that 1000 turns of unit production to better use than +2 science to every citizen.

In fact I would again argue the opposite, that permanent wonder effects become more meaningful with longer speeds.

Given that there'll be far less unit production in the first place....

Permanent wonder effects become pointless compared to temporary ones. Temporary ones means you're building something you know is going to obsolete (probably) sooner or later but you want to exploit those effects.

 

[Ahriman]

Am I the only one who thinks that its lame that the GP improvements destroy the base production value of the tile?
Are customhouses, manufacturing plants and academies really located mostly in deserts and tundra?

Porcelain Tower gives +2 science for every specialist in the empire.

Seems very overpowered.

 

[PinkHammurabi]

I noticed this, and it's really the same as in Civ IV: mines can be built on any appropriate resource, regardless of where it is, but if you just want to built a mine by itself for +production, it has to be on a hill.

I know, it was just something minor to point out since a) I wasn't sure if we were losing that "feature" and b) Greg said it was restricted to hills.

 

[Algeroth]

Am I the only one who thinks that its lame that the GP improvements destroy the base production value of the tile?
Are customhouses, manufacturing plants and academies really located mostly in deserts and tundra?

Yes, they are.

In this screenshot You can see aproximetly in middle-right of the map a hex that gives two apples and 5 science. (And it seems that academy have an abbacus as an icon. Cool)

Spoiler :

 

[King Jason]

Given that there'll be far less unit production in the first place....

Permanent wonder effects become pointless compared to temporary ones. Temporary ones means you're building something you know is going to obsolete (probably) sooner or later but you want to exploit those effects.

So is this an argument for or against the decision? We've already heard that units have relatively longer build times so it is entirely unfair to assume that just cause civ5 fields less units, that the strategic consideration of allocating your production toward a military is overwritten by a specific wonder's potential.

Further, with the addition of multiple broader, empire affecting systems, the strategic choice is further complicated by the fact that in the time it takes you to build a Wonder that nets you a bonus for your empire, you may have constructed buildings that net you multiple stacking bonuses for your empire. since it is no longer simply science that has the easiest discernable empire-wide implications. For example, Where building the Porcelain Tower might at the end of 300 turns begin to net you a sizable science boost. You might instead in those 300 turns construct several Happiness buildings, Gold buildings, lesser science buildings, culture buildings and/or possibly some military units that net you a permanent boost to your empire.

Considering Gold is useful on a grander scale via purchases and city-states, as is culture via social policies... I'd say it becomes difficult to detirmine the benefits of a short-term leveraged bonus Vs. the long term effects of acquiring territory faster, gaining city-state bonus faster, gaining social policies (which are also mostly permanent) faster, etc.

 

[12agnar0k]

Not at all. There are two Academies west of Xian and one west of Beijing. One tile northwest of Beijing's Academy is the Landmark built by a Great Artist. A few tiles east of Beijing is what looks entirely like an unfinished Trading Post. It doesn't look anything like an Academy or Landmark.

I was talking about the Academies you mentioned, was that not what the other guy was reffering too?

 

[Sonereal]

So is this an argument for or against the decision? We've already heard that units have relatively longer build times so it is entirely unfair to assume that just cause civ5 fields less units, that the strategic consideration of allocating your production toward a military is overwritten by a specific wonder's potential.

It's totally fair. You'll need far less units to defend given that A.) Cities do it themselves and B.) Defensive wars are easier. If the wonder has effects that'll last the entire game like Porcelain Tower's +2 beaker per specialist deal, then you would easily build it because as a warmonger, a tech lead is preferable and as a builder, a tech lead is still preferable.

Further, with the addition of multiple broader, empire affecting systems, the strategic choice is further complicated by the fact that in the time it takes you to build a Wonder that nets you a bonus for your empire, you may have constructed buildings that net you multiple stacking bonuses for your empire. since it is not long simply science that has the easiest discernable empire-wide implications. For example, Where building the Porcelain Tower might at the end of 300 turns begin to net you a sizable science boost. You might instead in those 300 turns construct several Happiness buildings, Gold buildings, lesser science buildings, culture buildings and/or possibly some military units that net you a permanent boost to your empire.

Do you often have all your cities building wonders or something? 10 or 100 turns is subjective depending on game speed. If it takes you a 100 turns to build it in a certain city, you should probably build it in a city that's already developed and having other cities that can cover your back. If wonders are all made permanent, you're going to have to nerf them to compensate. Doing that would substract from the mystique of having them in the first place.

Considering Gold is useful on a grander scale via purchases and city-states, as is culture via social policies... I'd say it becomes difficult to detirmine the benefits of a short-term leveraged bonus Vs. the long term effects of acquiring territory faster, gaining city-state bonus faster, gaining social policies (which are also mostly permanent) faster, etc.

Think about it, it's the same reason why civilizations don't have a UU for every era. Like UUs, you have to decide when to take advantage of them.

 

[PinkHammurabi]

Huh? I was referring to your post, here:

the 5 science improvements are the academy's from great scientists.