Armies

[Perkus]

I've given up on trying to get the helicopters flying over water in a sufficiently robust way to release publicly. Unfortunately the embarkation promotion controls far too many unmoddable aspects of units behaviour around water. For the hovering choppers, I need them to behave as embarked units some of the time (moving/pathing through ocean tiles, allowing embark/disembark mode), and as unembarked the rest (while entering water, combat over water). I eventually discovered that it's possible to toggle the promotion on or off as needed using SetHasPromotion() calls. Even so, the number of times I would need to intercept unit movements in progress and the number of different ways of initiating unit movement through the interface makes this prohibitively invasive and complex to bother with.

I looked at adding new unit missions or piggybacking on existing embarking functionality, but again it's all too tightly coded to make easy changes. The embark/disembark modes are kind of an afterthought, and it's usability is again tightly welded to the presence of an embarkation promotion.

If they simply made the 'CanMoveAllTerrain' promotion flag to do what it claims to, all this would be unnecessary.

I've attached the XML code for the two simple changes that let helis fly over coastal waters below, in case anybody wants to mess around with it themselves. Unless you're playing on continents, this alone might be "good enough" for some.

I wonder if there's a way to specifically block citystates from building particular structures

Not that I've seen.

 

[Thalassicus]

Sounds like something that would be easiest to do with c++... with the promotion, just add coast to the list of passable tiles for the unit.

Here's some changes I'm thinking about, could use some more feedback before implementing them.

• Passive ability for destroyers to spot subs moved to the tech unlocking subs.
• Either remove Battleship -> Missile Cruiser upgrade, or buff Missile Cruisers.
• Considering that Lancer -> Anti-Tank OR Anti-Tank -> Helicopter might be too powerful. In the modern era my "counter" units are actually comprising the bulk of my forces. I hate having to delete level 10+ units just because they're obsolete, but upgrading counter units to helicopters with blitz seems a bit too strong. Blitz is crazy good on helicopters. Alternatively, I could just block it from helicopters.

 

[haakon]

Good to hear, look forward to the next version. If you can let me know how to fix it manually though in the meantime I'd much appreciate it

Something I wanted to comment regarding carried over promotions. Since Longbows get +1 Range and this won't work when they turn into Rifles, what would be an equivalent that could be bestowed upon them? I was thinking +1 movement (mobility), but open to ideas.

Btw, Battleship description is that they are the strongest naval unit in the game. However making them upgrade to missile cruisers reduces their ranged strength, i.e. makes them weaker.

Ha, ha. I can imagine longbowmen promoted to riflemen++ being pretty powerful, especially if they can carry over move-after-combat and +1 movement.

Btw, I too, would love to get access to the code that fixes upgrades from ranged to melee units. In my current game, I have a level 11 crossbowman that is still somewhat useful, but it is a shame that I cannot upgrade him without losing most or all of his promotions.

 

[Tomice]

[*]Either remove Battleship -> Missile Cruiser upgrade, or buff Missile Cruisers.

Buff missile cruisers IMO.

Battleships are all but obsolete nowadays, and while the 40cm guns have serious punch, they lack range (a few dozen kms vs 1500km with Tomahawks). The only reason there have been Iowas in active service until a few years ago, is the cost advantage of their grenades vs. guided missiles during massive coastal bombardments.

 

[BomberEscort]

Either remove Battleship -> Missile Cruiser upgrade, or buff Missile Cruisers.

I don't think a buff is required as the Missile Cruisers functionality is different. Assuming the MC is fully loaded it can consistently take out a Battleship in one turn (missiles and shell bombardment). Something more interesting, I think, would be to mod the MC to start with a full compliment of missiles, while leaving the stats the same (and keep the upgrade).

The MC is a Battleship on steroids! It has interception capabilities, can carry missiles, has the same , 3 additional ; all for a 20 increase, and a reduction on bombardment strength (-7)

On a side note, I've noticed that movement, move-after-attacking, and cargo seem to get the shaft in balance mods. Take tanks for example: a 50 with move after attacking is superior to a 50 Mechanized Infantry unit that can't. Especially when they come from the back to attack and move back behind the infantry line (it's like a free attack, but they live to fight another day). Personally, I think all Tanks should have their moves c5moves increased by one (except the Panzer - it's devastating when played correctly as-is).

Some may argue that the lack of defensive capabilities even out Tanks out. But, if tanks are used as they are designed in gameplay, they're a fast-strike-and-move-away-to-safety unit. They are for support, hence the penalty for attacking cities.

I typically like your mods thal, but can't bring myself to use this one. Please don't take anything I said as an attack, it's more a difference of an opinion, and you seem like a person who would welcome constructive criticism/different perspectives.

Considering that Lancer -> Anti-Tank OR Anti-Tank -> Helicopter might be too powerful.

I agree. I would suggest breaking the link at Lancer/Anti-Tank.

 

[civcivv]

I see you released v15, what are the changes?

 

[jwallstone]

I wonder if there's a way to specifically block citystates from building particular structures

Absolutely. Something like this:

<Civilization_BuildingClassOverrides>
  <Update>
    <Where CivilizationType="CIVILIZATION_MINOR" BuildingClassType="BUILDINGCLASS_HEROIC_EPIC" />
    <Set BuildingType="NULL" />
  </Update>
</Civilization_BuildingClassOverrides>

As far as I can tell, all the national wonders are disabled by default. What building are you talking about?

 

[Perkus]

I like the idea of giving MCs a bunch of missiles upon creation. I hope that's doable. Helicopters being upgradable to might be less attractive if they belonged to the air domain like they should, so that all that anti-air capability out there would be a threat to them. I don't think they have any counters currently. Requiring sub-detection to sub-tech - I guess the question is, how reasonable is it for destroyers to detect subs if they don't really know how to make one? Any naval warfare experts?

I noticed in my last game the AI built a *ridiculous* amount of destroyers (I counted around 35 for the biggest civ at game's end on a *small* map!). They don't seem to build modern ships much. That means subs are basically useless to build against AI, as it's very hard to avoid all those destroyers. That's based on a one game sample, though. Using the map reveal mod is a good way to check what the AI has built (for testing purposes only! )

 

[Tomice]

I second the full MC from start idea, but basically only because it sounds fun Seems unbalanced, though.


Regarding subs, after reading the Wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-submarine_warfare I wouldn't say you need much technology to fight the more primitive versions.

Early subs were spotted visually or heard with microphones, the invention of Sonar/Radar changed a lot during WW2.

Seeing that subs need refrigeration as tech in Civ5, I would't say you need to seperate it.


Regarding gameplay, I don't think a player should be helpless against subs. But making them harder to fight before radar is invented might be fun.

 

[BomberEscort]

...Regarding gameplay, I don't think a player should be helpless against subs. But making them harder to fight before radar is invented might be fun.

I like this idea! Is it possible to give PROMOTION_SEE_INVISIBLE_SUBMARINE to a Destroyer AFTER the Radar tech is discovered? As it is now, after they attack you can see them, but after Radar you could see them before they attack.

 

[Thalassicus]

Absolutely. Something like this:

<Civilization_BuildingClassOverrides>
  <Update>
    <Where CivilizationType="CIVILIZATION_MINOR" BuildingClassType="BUILDINGCLASS_HEROIC_EPIC" />
    <Set BuildingType="NULL" />
  </Update>
</Civilization_BuildingClassOverrides>

As far as I can tell, all the national wonders are disabled by default. What building are you talking about?

Aha, thanks! I need to add the wonders in the City Development mod... CSs build the Agra Fort and get insane defense values, something I did not intend.

Regarding subs, one idea popping into my head: what if subs were invisible until they attack, then visible for 1 turn? Sonar promotion would give the capability to spot them all the time.

I think it might even be possible with the current tools. At the end of each turn, check if a sub has attacked. If yes, remove invisibility. If no, add invisibility. This is assuming there's a way to check number of attacks remaining, though..

The reason I'm bringing up the topic of subs is the recent PolyCast. It points out the valid issue that destroyers are before subs, and you can even upgrade earlier units to destroyers, which have a HUGE sight range. The invisibility of subs is basically pointless in the current game.

Also, on the topic of the coal resource display... I realized a problem with simply adding a "dummy" unit that uses coal to get it to show up would break backwards compatibility with savegames of earlier versions of the mod (or do not use the mod). Rather frustrating. I wonder if there's a way to modify the UI files to get coal to show up properly that way...


About missile cruisers... what about a Starcraft method? Basically, give nuclear subs and missile cruisers a button to purchase missiles like cities, replenishing your magazine. It cuts out the middleman micro of rebasing the missile. I've never used cruise missiles in any version of civ... partially because it gives no experience, partially because it's tedious to rebase missiles. It might be rather fun if cruisers and nuke subs had a magazine you could refill right there, and each shot fired from the magazine gave ranged XP.

 

[Gaster]

I stongly discourage breaking the pikeman -> helicopter chain. I personally hate experience going obsolete, so before your mod, I never used lancers. If blitz helicopters are the problem, then I agree with attacking it at the source - remove blitz from helicopters (replace it with logistics if possible). According to the Civilopedia, anti-aircraft guns and mobile SAMs also receive a bonus vs helicopters which should help keep helis in line as well, providing the AI builds those units.

I never use guided missiles because carrier + bombers and maybe a fighter seems like a much better investment, so I like the idea of allowing missile cruisers and nuke subs to buy missiles at sea.

 

[Perkus]

Also, on the topic of the coal resource display... I realized a problem with simply adding a "dummy" unit that uses coal to get it to show up would break backwards compatibility with savegames of earlier versions of the mod (or do not use the mod). Rather frustrating. I wonder if there's a way to modify the UI files to get coal to show up properly that way...

I've had a rough fix for the coal bug for some time, but it's in TopPanel.lua and needs merging with many other UI mods. It was merged into CCMAT at some point I think. It looks like Attila's doesn't have it. It's simply replacing one line in two places:

				--if (Game.GetResourceUsageType(iResourceLoop) == ResourceUsageTypes.RESOURCEUSAGE_STRATEGIC) then
				if (iResourceLoop < 6) then

It's not perfect because it won't show new types of strategic resources, but those mods are rare.

 

[Thalassicus]

Superb! I didn't know it'd be that simple. I'll PM it to Attila.

I don't think any mods actually exist yet that add new strategic resources... and they'd probably be a big overhaul that wouldn't be used with these balance adjustments anyway.

 

[Perkus]

I know of one early mod that was trying to add a wood resource. I don't know how that turned out, never tried it.

 

[Plasmabunny]

All of the defensive buildings seem to be raising city defense by triple digits. Walls add 100, Castle 314, etc. I've got combat v 15, disabling it returns defense to their default values.

 

[Thalassicus]

I fixed the coal resource issue and updated the Balance - Combined pack (the fix is in Attila's mod).

@Plasmabunny
Are you using any other mods that alter defensive structures? In particular, if you're using Active City Defense check the "Compatibility" note in the first post to make the two mods compatible.

 

[TheQuad]

@Plasmabunny
Are you using any other mods that alter defensive structures? In particular, if you're using Active City Defense check the "Compatibility" note in the first post to make the two mods compatible.

Sorry Thal, I'm a little confused about the compatibility between this and Active City Defense. The OP says to delete a few lines in Active City Defense\XML\Buildings\BuildingChanges.xml, but the Readme in the Balance-Combat folder says to delete the BU - City Defenses.sql file.

Should I do one or the other, or both?

 

[BomberEscort]

Regarding Submarines and Destroyers:

You could...

• Remove PROMOTION_SEE_INVISIBLE_SUBMARINE from Destroyers altogether, leaving only Subs that can see Subs.
• Have PROMOTION_SEE_INVISIBLE_SUBMARINE available at Radar
• Change the Caravel sight promotion (PROMOTION_EXTRA_SIGHT_II) to be lost with upgrade (no other unit uses this promotion).
• Add PROMOTION_EXTRA_SIGHT_II to the Submarine while removing it from the Caravel.
• Downgrade Destroyers from PROMOTION_EXTRA_SIGHT_III (III is used by Destroyers only) to II and give the Subs III

... or maybe some or all of the above.

My preference would be:

• Downgrade Destroyers from PROMOTION_EXTRA_SIGHT_III to II and give the Subs III
• Change the Caravel sight promotion (PROMOTION_EXTRA_SIGHT_II) to be lost with upgrade (no other unit uses this promotion).
• Have PROMOTION_SEE_INVISIBLE_SUBMARINE available at Radar
  (add <TechPrereq>TECH_RADAR</TechPrereq> to PROMOTION_SEE_INVISIBLE_SUBMARINE). This would also change it for Subs that are discovered at Refrigeration. Maybe it could be moved to Refrigeration (seems odd though, but would ensure that subs always had the promotion, unless radar is always before refrigeration)

Another idea I had to encourage naval warfare is to give all land units capable of bombarding the 'RangeAttackOnlyInDomain=true' setting. That way, dealing with enemy naval requires a Navy or Air Force (and the occasional City Bombardment)...

Thoughts?

 

[Tomice]

Dear Thal,

I have a problem with city defences again...

I checked them at the beginning of my current game (combat v13), and they were bug-free (10/20/30). Later I saw that you have fixed a bug with promotion swapping in v14 and installed v15.

Now I have walls with 20 str and castles with 40 str again, and switching back to v13 didn't change their civpedia entry.

I never had Active City Defence installed since reinstalling the whole game a few days ago (I deleted it from CCMAT before I started my first game).