[R&F] Article Discussion: Cree Nation Headman says he disapproves of Poundmaker's depiction in RnF

[marius_kaparius]

No but any method you employ except war is going to be very weak/slow and that goes against the directive of the game to be the first to reach victory conditions.

I apologize, but where I'm lost is where you connect the optimal strategy with the enjoyment and greater cultural meaning of the game. Are you saying my having fun while playing what is perceived to be a sub-optimal strategy is not valid and can therefore not be put forward as representative of the game?

 

[Karpius]

I'm sorry but I disagree that war should be optimal. I think that all paths should be equally viable, such as trade and co-operation. If that is not so, the game play will over-centralize around war and it becomes meaningless to posit any alternatives because they would not be efficient.

I think to achieve what you want in terms of the game, you would need to define a 'template' of some sort for what constitutes a successful civilization, or nation-state. Then you need to illustrate all possible paths that can lead to that success in equally optimal ways. There would need to be a balance of rewards and penalties in different areas depending upon which path is chosen.

 

[1SDANi]

Actually, if we wanted to be historical, co-operation would be optimal. Much more has been achieved by working together than dominating each other.

If that was true in Civ 6 I'm pretty sure Tootoosis won't have an issue with misrepresentation. Whether or not he may find another reason is a separate topic altogether.

True, but nations won't just go and share food and land out of the goodness of their hearts. If we look at history, the optimal move would be for the entire world to live in peace and harmony share resources with each other and as such the world economy would skyrocket like never before. But that's obviously never going to happen. Why do I say that? The amount of food the world throws away per day is enough to end world hunger. Yet we still joke about "African Children in Africa could've eaten X, but you threw it away."

 

[Kyro]

I apologize, but where I'm lost is where you connect the optimal strategy with the enjoyment and greater cultural meaning of the game. Are you saying my having fun while playing what is perceived to be a sub-optimal strategy is not valid and can therefore not be put forward as representative of the game?

That is a great question and I'm glad you asked.

To get this out of the way:
I did not connect Optimal Strategy with Enjoyment. Enjoyment is subjective, changes from player to player, cannot be measured. Optimal Strategy is objective, measurable by game stats such as turn time, output.

To answer your question:
Firstly, what defines a game? It's rules and objectives right? In the context of designed elements of course.

What kind of game play best represents the game? The playing style that best matches the rules, objectives and design of the game.

Example: In a race game, you would expect a representation of the game to include a play style that best conforms to its rules and objectives. Given that the goal of the game is to be the first to reach the finish line, would you expect the player said to represent the game to:

a: Pick the fastest and most maneuverable car according to game stats
b: The most comfortable car according to opinion
c: The most beautiful car according to opinion

I think it's safe to say that the most accurate depiction is the choice that best suits the ultimate goal of the game which is to win the race isn't it?

If we are to consider that subjective interpretations of the game are all valid representations, whose do we use to define what the game is about?

My point is, a game is defined by the play style the developers encourage through its design, rules and objectives. A player may get enjoyment out of the game that is not attuned to the game objectives but at the end of the day it is what the developers assign power to for the purposes of accomplishing game objectives that define what the game is about.

You can play a race game to enjoy cruising while ignoring the race, but does that really represent the game?

You can pick a slower car that is equally maneuverable as the fastest car, but does that follow the game objective and can that be a good representation?

 

[marius_kaparius]

What kind of game play best represents the game? The playing style that best matches the rules and objectives right?

You'll need to prove this statement better to convince me. By your definition the best representation of a game may be speed running. Glitching through the walls and breaking the game scripts to get to the ending the fastest. I don't see many developers many developers putting that up as the trailer for their game. In fact the statement "The playing style that best matches the rules and objectives right?" is subjective and specific to you. My daughter's favorite way to play Mario is falling down a hole over and over and laughing at the sound effects and animation.

 

[Kyro]

You'll need to prove this statement better to convince me. By your definition the best representation of a game may be speed running. Glitching through the walls and breaking the game scripts to get to the ending the fastest. I don't see many developers many developers putting that up as the trailer for their game. In fact the statement "The playing style that best matches the rules and objectives right?" is subjective and specific to you. My daughter's favorite way to play Mario is falling down a hole over and over and laughing at the sound effects and animation.

I was wondering whether to include (Cheats and Glicthes aside) on top and looks I like should have.

Glitches, Cheats and Exploits aren't assigned power by developers, those are not intentional and therefore do not contribute to the identity of the game even though they may be extremely powerful for accomplishing game objectives.

"The playing style that best matches the rules, objectives and design of the game right?"
That is actually the most objective definition I know if, if you can find another that is more objective I am all ears.

If you needed to find someone to demonstrate your game, what definition would you use instead to bring out what your game is about?

 

[Depravo]

It's not about how people imagine their future, but how they see their past.
...

I'm not trying to defend every design decision made in the Civ series (and the spurious division of history into ages determined by tech - and now civics - is as old as the game). No matter where in the world, a culture that took up agriculture or horsemanship, bronze or ironworking underwent profound changes. But no culture in the Americas got any further than the first.

It's in the social and cultural sphere that the bias is most noticeable. For example, China entered and left the feudal system in the BC turns but in Civ, feudalism is always a feature of the Middle Ages.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: We're headed to a new topic, please steer back on course. Thanks.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

edit:Moderator Action: Three posts deleted that did not heed the warning.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[liv]

Article from VICE. Has some new info
https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/...ith-chiefs-inclusion-in-new-civilization-game

exerpt
When the Poundmaker Cree Nation in Saskatchewan first heard about his appearance early last week, Tootoosis said his nation was excited about the prospect of the game teaching scores of young people about their way of life and their former leader. However, that all changed when they learned that the goal of Civilization is essentially colonialism.

"Without knowing what the narrative of the game was we thought 'oh man, that's kinda cool that our cultural icon is even referenced in this game' especially because it is an international company,” said Tootoosis. “Upon further investigation and understanding of this war game about the inclusion of messages and ideals related to imperialism and colonialism, this doesn't sit well with many of us because that's not what Poundmaker represents."

“Maybe we would be honoured to be part of it but there has to be dialogue and discussion and a full understanding of what it is we're agreeing to,” Tootoosis said. “In the past, and we're not alone in this, there has been some exploitation of our culture and in this case our cultural icon who we hold very highly."

Furthermore, the publisher behind Civilization, 2K Games, did not seek permission of the first nation or consult the elders in regards to the use their namesake as a character.

2K Games did not respond to VICE’s request for comment. We will update this story if they do.

Tootoosis said he would have liked to see “any company doing this” to “approach the correct officials and to make a visit.”

“Maybe we would be honoured to be part of it but there has to be dialogue and discussion and a full understanding of what it is we're agreeing to,” Tootoosis said. “In the past, and we're not alone in this, there has been some exploitation of our culture and in this case our cultural icon who we hold very highly."

“There was no consent. That’s a key word here, consent.”

Tootoosis said the consensus among the elders in their community is that they are unhappy with the portrayal of Poundmaker and will be asking the youth their thoughts in the near future. While the game portrays Poundmaker in a positive light—the narrator of the trailer saying he “judicially (tows) the line between aggression and diplomacy” and is remembered for “his work to secure peace between the Cree and the Canadian government”—Tootoosis is still worried about “a potential danger of brainwashing a person to believe a certain culture is this way or that way.”

 

[liv]

I think that it is positive that they will ask the young people. At least the ones who were involved with the music were excited to think that more people would learn about their culture from the game

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

"Without knowing what the narrative of the game was we thought 'oh man, that's kinda cool that our cultural icon is even referenced in this game' especially because it is an international company,” said Tootoosis. “Upon further investigation and understanding of this war game about the inclusion of messages and ideals related to imperialism and colonialism, this doesn't sit well with many of us because that's not what Poundmaker represents."

This seems different than what I've known. It sounds like there wouldn't have even been a problem without the Tribe's consent if there was no possibility of war involved in the game.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

Tootoosis said the consensus among the elders in their community is that they are unhappy with the portrayal of Poundmaker and will be asking the youth their thoughts in the near future.

Hopefully there will be some gamers among the youth who can help the elders understand that they've got the wrong idea about what kind of game Civilization is.

The fact that Milton Tootoosis calls it a "war game" demonstrates that he doesn't know anything more about it than what can be learned in a cursory internet search.

 

[Zaarin]

So our earlier speculation that the root of the problem is that Mr. Tootoosis doesn't understand the game seems to be confirmed. Reminds me of one time when I was around ten and my grandmother was appalled at how violent The Pagemaster was and wasn't convinced that I was allowed to watch it. As an adult I'm appalled that a film with such a stellar cast could be so utterly crap, but that's not the topic of this thread.

 

[Sagax]

So our earlier speculation that the root of the problem is that Mr. Tootoosis doesn't understand the game seems to be confirmed. Reminds me of one time when I was around ten and my grandmother was appalled at how violent The Pagemaster was and wasn't convinced that I was allowed to watch it. As an adult I'm appalled that a film with such a stellar cast could be so utterly crap, but that's not the topic of this thread.

Theoretical scenario of how it happened:

Sees Cree First Look: “Hm, that’s interesting and potentially good for the awareness of our culture! But what is this game really about?”

Checks out “Suggested Video: First Look - Mongolia”: “WHAT HAVE THEY DONE!....”

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Theoretical scenario of how it happened:

Sees Cree First Look: “Hm, that’s interesting and potentially good for the awareness of our culture! But what is this game really about?”

Checks out “Suggested Video: First Look - Mongolia”: “WHAT HAVE THEY DONE!....”

He might have stopped after seeing their Okichitaw attacking the poor helpless barbarian.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Also just a thought. Maybe another peace offering Firaxis could make is a purpose-built scenario, featuring The Cree, & other Native North American tribes, in pre-Columbian America......where war is disabled, & you have to win via culture & diplomacy alone....in a similar vein to the South East Asian scenario.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

Theoretical scenario of how it happened:

Sees Cree First Look: “Hm, that’s interesting and potentially good for the awareness of our culture! But what is this game really about?”

Checks out “Suggested Video: First Look - Mongolia”: “WHAT HAVE THEY DONE!....”

Wouldn't surprise me if it was the muckraking journalists who gave him the wrong impression of the game on purpose so they could have the outraged reaction they wanted for their story.

 

[Thormodr]

Also just a thought. Maybe another peace offering Firaxis could make is a purpose-built scenario, featuring The Cree, & other Native North American tribes, in pre-Columbian America......where war is disabled, & you have to win via culture & diplomacy alone....in a similar vein to the South East Asian scenario.

That’s a pretty good idea.

 

[Sagax]

Wouldn't surprise me if it was the muckraking journalists who gave him the wrong impression of the game on purpose so they could have the outraged reaction they wanted for their story.

I was thinking about this as well. Like, how has he heard of the Cree’s inclusion to begin with? If he discovered it on his own, did he run to the media outlet to share his opinion? Unlikely.... there is a very high chance that he was approached by the media first.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

That’s a pretty good idea.

Given the new Loyalty mechanics, it would now be possible for a Civilization to expand without having to launch a single war.