[R&F] Article Discussion: Cree Nation Headman says he disapproves of Poundmaker's depiction in RnF

[Inhalaattori]

I actually see their point. For me its not about offending anyone. The whole idea of "cultural appropriation" is very questionable IMO. BUT the idea of the game is totally opposite to the world view and history of these tribes. The concept of Civilization does not fit to these types of cultures like most North-American Native tribes, Inuits, Australian Aboriginals etc. They had NONE of the core systems of the game. First thing you do in the game is to build a city. Well they did not build cities, didnt have large scale agriculture, did not really make advanced scientific discoveries, did not have armies in the real sense of the word, didnt build "Wonders of the world" etc. I personally would be totally fine if Civ games never had these type of "Civiliazations", because they simply dont fit the core concepts of the game.

 

[Kyro]

Quote from article:

"It perpetuates this myth that First Nations had similar values that the colonial culture has, and that is one of conquering other peoples and accessing their land," he said. "That is totally not in concert with our traditional ways and world view."

What he said is 100% true of what Civ 6 advocates unfortunately.

 

[Thormodr]

While Elder Tootoosis doesn’t speak for all the Cree people, he does speak for the Poundmaker Cree and Poundmaker is the leader. So, he does have a little more at stake than the Woodland Cree living in Northwest Ontario, for example.

 

[liv]

Yeah it is just a video game

 

[DeutschDachs]

next week's headline: "Rise and Fall will not be sold in Canada due to tribal copyright issues"

Yes, definitely because of the tribal copyright issues and not because Canada was excluded again

Wonder if there are many Cree players and what they think about it

I've seen a few who at least claim to be Cree on Facebook and Reddit who say they are super excited for it.

 

[Thormodr]

Quote from article:

"It perpetuates this myth that First Nations had similar values that the colonial culture has, and that is one of conquering other peoples and accessing their land," he said. "That is totally not in concert with our traditional ways and world view."

What he said is 100% true of what Civ 6 advocates unfortunately.

I am not so sure about that. I think warmongering and world conquest is more difficult in Civ VI. I think there has been a gradual trend away from warmongering, in general. Especially with the more peaceful victory options being so appealing.

 

[Zaarin]

Quote from article:

"It perpetuates this myth that First Nations had similar values that the colonial culture has, and that is one of conquering other peoples and accessing their land," he said. "That is totally not in concert with our traditional ways and world view."

What he said is 100% true of what Civ 6 advocates unfortunately.

Is it? I've been playing Civ6 since the day it released and I've declared war once--while playing as the Aztec, who were real-life warmongers, because I wanted the achievement for a domination victory.

 

[liv]

Poundmaker moved around but he did live in Cut Knife a while. There are 500 people on that reserve

 

[Guandao]

I actually see their point. For me its not about offending anyone. The whole idea of "cultural appropriation" is very questionable IMO. BUT the idea of the game is totally opposite to the world view and history of these tribes. The concept of Civilization does not fit to these types of cultures like most North-American Native tribes, Inuits, Australian Aboriginals etc. They had NONE of the core systems of the game. First thing you do in the game is to build a city. Well they did not build cities, didnt have large scale agriculture, did not really make advanced scientific discoveries, did not have armies in the real sense of the word, didnt build "Wonders of the world" etc. I personally would be totally fine if Civ games never had these type of "Civiliazations", because they simply dont fit the core concepts of the game.

More inaccurate and prejudiced generalization about Native Americans. Look up the Moundbuilders please. They were surely North Amerindians who fit the criteria of city-building, practicing agriculture. Not all of them were nomadic hunter gatherers. As for making advanced scientific discoveries, Europeans made the majority of those. Should the game just include European Civs only? With maybe a few non-European Civs like China, Egypt, Babylon, and the Arabs? And for wonders, do you consider Monks Mound in Cahokia, Serpent Mound, and Mesa Verde Cliff Palace, "wonders"?

 

[bite]

After the Pueblo I would have expected that Firaxis would have learned that they needed to consult during the creation of any First Nation/Native American civilization.

The question is Did they do it here? and if they did how well did they do it?

There is a very good chance that they my have consulted with members of the Cree people (they had to at least for the music) but not the leadership which is a different issue.

If there was no consultation at all I would be both surprised and very disappointed in Firaxis

 

[Mobfire]

"It perpetuates this myth that First Nations had similar values that the colonial culture has, and that is one of conquering other peoples and accessing their land," he said. "That is totally not in concert with our traditional ways and world view."

Does anyone really think the First Nations were like Europeans though? If anything, I'd say the problem is much more of an under appreciation of Indigenous cultures and societies. The stereotype that exists among the uneducated is that they were wise and noble savages who didn't have complex societies and had no noteworthy accomplishments. Their representation in Civ 6 helps to dispel this myth; and it also teaches people about the accomplishments that they had such as the creation of the Iron Confederacy.

 

[liv]

I think the bands are units and all the Cree bands do not have a common leader. There is a First Nations Assembly for all of Canada

Even if he was sceptical about being part of the game, the Tootootisis did hope for something possitive to come out of it. Hopefully they can roll with that

 

[Inhalaattori]

Cree people were not that peaceful.

Has there really been many tribal societies that we could really call totally peaceful? What is true though is that some tribal societies didnt have concept of owning land the same way as Europeans of colonial period. So they did have wars, but the idea was not to conquer land.

 

[Disgustipated]

The only other example I can think of is China and Mao Zedong

I'm curious, what were they upset about with Mao? I actually liked having that leader in the game.

And if we can't include leaders because people would be offended, we'll never get anywhere. What if I am offended by Teddy Roosevelt's and America's depiction? What if every Nation wanted their nation portrayed as peaceful leaders? What would that do for gameplay? Perhaps Donald Trump will intervene about the way America is depicted in the game. Truthfully, I think America depiction is terrible. Many of our wars were fought outside our continent, why do we get +5 bonus on our own continent? If anything, America should be portrayed more as a militaristic civ.

Maybe it's better just to represent Ancient civilizations after all, no modern ones.

 

[Thormodr]

More inaccurate and prejudiced generalization about Native Americans. Look up the Moundbuilders please. They were surely Amerindians who fit the criteria of city-building, practicing agriculture. As for making advanced scientific discoveries, Europeans made the majority of those. Should the game just include European Civs only?

Uhhh...Europeans made the majority of advanced scientific discoveries? China surely holds that title.

 

[Uberfrog]

On some level the headline (and subheadline which alleges “cultural appropriation” which is then not mentioned in the article) are disingenuous.

Tootoosis is unhappy with the Cree being represented as equivalent to colonial civilisations, certainly, although the idea that First Nations did not fight wars over territory seems a little hard to argue.

But in the end of the article he actually expresses that Poundmaker’s (highly flattering) portrayal may help their campaign to have him pardoned in Canada.

It’s a far more ambivalent position than the headline suggests.

It is disappointing that they didn’t contact the Cree nation at all (possibly Firaxis wished to avoid a repeat of the Pueblo incident by not doing so). But as others have mentioned, they do not make a point of contacting any other cultures or nations they add to the game. It wouldn’t seem to be out of any specific disrespect, especially considering Cree musicians were happy to add their music to the game.

 

[Siptah]

Uhhh...Europeans made the majority of advanced scientific discoveries? China surely holds that title.

Discoveries, yes. Scientific, no.

I'm curious, what were they upset about with Mao? I actually liked having that leader in the game.

And if we can't include leaders because people would be offended, we'll never get anywhere. What if I am offended by Teddy Roosevelt's and America's depiction? What if every Nation wanted their nation portrayed as peaceful leaders? What would that do for gameplay? Perhaps Donald Trump will intervene about the way America is depicted in the game. Truthfully, I think America depiction is terrible. Many of our wars were fought outside our continent, why do we get +5 bonus on our own continent? If anything, America should be portrayed more as a militaristic civ.

Maybe it's better just to represent Ancient civilizations after all, no modern ones.

They didn‘t like that Mao can lose iirc.

 

[Kyro]

I am not so sure about that. I think warmongering and world conquest is more difficult in Civ VI. I think there has been a gradual trend away from warmongering, in general. Especially with the more peaceful victory options being so appealing.

Well let me clear you doubt then.

Warmongering is the single most rewarding strategy in the game in that it achieves much more than peaceful interaction ever can.

There is no victory aligned advantage to playing peacefully that compares with the sheer advantage one gets for conquering others. All advantage that diplomacy grants you pales in comparison to what conquering gets you.

There is no downside to conquering and it is encouraged by multiple features in the game.

Peace on the other hand is discouraged in that many features in the game pre-empt any player action that would allow him/her to avoid having to compete for land with the AI. The developers have also intentionally made it less rewarding to build infrastructure yourself by means of inflating costs throughout the game.

Diplomacy prepatch was so pre-disposed towards conflict you could expect everyone to hate you no matter what you did. The fact they made changes does not cloud their original intention on how they expected conflict to occur in the game.

 

[Guandao]

I'm curious, what were they upset about with Mao? I actually liked having that leader in the game.

And if we can't include leaders because people would be offended, we'll never get anywhere. What if I am offended by Teddy Roosevelt's and America's depiction? What if every Nation wanted their nation portrayed as peaceful leaders? What would that do for gameplay? Perhaps Donald Trump will intervene about the way America is depicted in the game. Truthfully, I think America depiction is terrible. Many of our wars were fought outside our continent, why do we get +5 bonus on our own continent? If anything, America should be portrayed more as a militaristic civ.

They didn't want a game where Mao Zedong can be defeated.
Let's not have him in the games anymore, I detest the man.

Uhhh...Europeans made the majority of advanced scientific discoveries? China surely holds that title.

A few scientific (before modern Science) discoveries, China stagnated eventually. Europeans and their descendants made most of the discoveries in the 1700s-1900s.

 

[liv]

It is just one journalist phoning up the band spokesman who has to say something. No reason to be take it so seriously yet.