Ask a Mormon, Part 4

[downtown]

There was a really good academic paper on this that floated around the Mormon blog community...I'll see if I can find it. My hunch is that it's mostly #3 (we can't find a specific revelation that banned it). We had a few kinda racist members of the Quorum of the 12 in the 1960s, which I think kept this from happening sooner.

Also, when public pressure during the civil rights era tried to apply leverage to the church, we doubled down. The man can't tell us what to do, and all that.

Also, Eran (or Red Key), were blacks also prohibited from temple marriage? I don't remember.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Yes, since being ordained to the priesthood is necessary for a temple sealing. I remember reading in Matthew Bowman's book The Mormon People (which I recommend)* that I think the widow of one of the black men who had been ordained wanted to but couldn't be sealed to him.

And one of the church leaders opposed to black ordination was Bruce R. McConkie, who wrote the book Mormon Doctrine** and in it said that blacks would never hold the priesthood. When that was changed in 1978, his response was, "I was wrong about that" and accepted the change wholeheartedly.

*It was written by a Mormon for a non-Mormon audience, which means that he usually portrays the church in a good light overall, but doesn't attribute anything to God, which means that some of his interpretations of some events are at odds with what Mormons believe and what non-Mormons think about something.
**Which is not officially canon; it was a summary of what Mormons believe, according to one (admittedly influential) member. The above-cited book explains the role of church leaders in formal church theology.

 

[otago]

Yes, since being ordained to the priesthood is necessary for a temple sealing. I remember reading in Matthew Bowman's book The Mormon People (which I recommend)* that I think the widow of one of the black men who had been ordained wanted to but couldn't be sealed to him.

And one of the church leaders opposed to black ordination was Bruce R. McConkie, who wrote the book Mormon Doctrine** and in it said that blacks would never hold the priesthood. When that was changed in 1978, his response was, "I was wrong about that" and accepted the change wholeheartedly.

*It was written by a Mormon for a non-Mormon audience, which means that he usually portrays the church in a good light overall, but doesn't attribute anything to God, which means that some of his interpretations of some events are at odds with what Mormons believe and what non-Mormons think about something.
**Which is not officially canon; it was a summary of what Mormons believe, according to one (admittedly influential) member. The above-cited book explains the role of church leaders in formal church theology.

Is there any thing at all in so called Mormon doctrine that cannot be changed by the leadership ?
Taking an extreme example, the Mormon leadership decides the Anglican church is correct and therefore the Mormon church will become a part of the wider Anglican church.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Is church doctrine based on an individual interpretation of the scriptures (The Bible, the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and whatever that fourth book you guys use is, honestly don't remember) or are infallible traditions passed down similarly to the Catholic Church? (though obviously the actual traditions are different.)

Why do you guys exclusively use the KJV? King James wasn't even Mormon.

 

[Red Key]

Is there any thing at all in so called Mormon doctrine that cannot be changed by the leadership ?
Taking an extreme example, the Mormon leadership decides the Anglican church is correct and therefore the Mormon church will become a part of the wider Anglican church.

Yes there are definitely some things that cannot be changed such as your Anglican church example. The core of Mormon doctrine is the gospel of Jesus Christ and cannot be changed. Doctrines like faith in Jesus Christ, love for God and your neighbor, and the necessity for baptism could not be changed because they are clearly part of the gospel Jesus taught.

Just a week and a half ago one of the Apostles spoke about how doctrine is established at the church's semiannual conference. If you want to read his sermon it can be found here.

 

[Red Key]

Is church doctrine based on an individual interpretation of the scriptures (The Bible, the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and whatever that fourth book you guys use is, honestly don't remember) or are infallible traditions passed down similarly to the Catholic Church? (though obviously the actual traditions are different.)

Why do you guys exclusively use the KJV? King James wasn't even Mormon.

There is some individual interpretation of the scriptures. For example, in Genesis 1 was the Earth created in literal days (24 hours as we know it now) or did this just represent an unknown period of time? A question like this would be up to individual interpretation.

I do think some traditions are passed down. I don't know exactly what you mean by tradition, but to me it connotes something created by men and not God. Thus, it would not be considered infallible. I would recommend following the link I posted in the previous post if you really want to know more about how doctrine is established.

The KJV is probably one of those traditions. It was the version of the Bible Joseph Smith read. The church decided to make it the official English version for the church, and prints it itself complete with footnotes and an index in the back (that also cross reference other Mormon scriptures you mentioned). Don't forget English isn't the only language in this world, and church members who speak/read other languages would use a version of the Bible in that language.

 

[GhostWriter16]

That's helpful, thanks

By tradition, I simply meant traditions that are passed down by word of mouth, rather than written in the Bible (Or Book of Mormon or whatever other scriptures you use.) In Roman Catholicism such sacred tradition is considered infallible, while in Protestantism (Which is what I am) its not.

 

[Chazumi]

Not going to lie, I didn't read the first 10 pages of crap. My background:

Born 1986, left SLC Utah 2006 so I've got some experience.

My questions:

1. How do you defend your prophet joseph smith being an arsonist and setting a paper mill on fire?
2. How do you defend the "almost" undisputed fact that your prophet is a schizophrenic (his mom AND dad were both showing signs)
3. How do you feel about Utah Mormons compared to your place of residence?
4. How do you feel about Mormonisms effects on Utahs political themes? (19 to buy tobacco, insane liquor laws etc.,)
5. Do you 100% believe that Joseph smith had an umin and thumin (spelling?) to translate his golden plates?
6. Do you believe in the old/new testament, and if so, what conflicts do you feel need to be addressed, and why are they not consistent with the BoM?
7. Mormonism is not a monotheistic religion. If you deny this, how do you defend it? If you do not deny it, then how do you defend yourself as Christian?
8. America, South America, Semi-Europe, and the ocassional obscure islands, how does the "Prophet" decide where your missionaries go?
9. How does the church decide where the missionaries go?
10. Where does the church spend it's "Tithings" and do they show a tax-record/income-expenses report yearly?
11. Why are there no missionaries in the middle east?
12. Where are the golden plates now?
13. On a scale of 1-10 how "Mormon" or "LDS" do you consider yourself?

 

[downtown]

3. How do you feel about Utah Mormons compared to your place of residence?

There are good Mormons in Utah, and there are crazy Mormons in Utah. There is a reason why I live a good 1,500 miles from the place, and have no desire to move there.

4. How do you feel about Mormonisms effects on Utahs political themes? (19 to buy tobacco, insane liquor laws etc.,)

The SLC Tribune actually did a study on this, where they interviewed a ton of Utah House members...LDS and non-LDS, current and former, to see what kind of active role the church had in lobbying. They found that the church itself actually did very little lobbying (although it certainly did on some issues, like immigration, or certain construction projects), but since so much of the state is LDS, you get things like weirdo liquor laws.

I think Utah is a crazy place, politically, for more than just the church. If you want to look at who is really responsible for crazypants laws, look at the Eagle Forum, not church HQ.

5. Do you 100% believe that Joseph smith had an umin and thumin (spelling?) to translate his golden plates?

Yes.

6. Do you believe in the old/new testament, and if so, what conflicts do you feel need to be addressed, and why are they not consistent with the BoM?

Yes, and I do not feel that are any substantive conflicts with the BoM.

8. America, South America, Semi-Europe, and the ocassional obscure islands, how does the "Prophet" decide where your missionaries go?
9. How does the church decide where the missionaries go?

Some of this is determined by the specific missionary...specific language skills or paperwork status may make you more likely to go to a specific place. Some other countries place other restrictions. For example, there are a few African countries that only allow natives to serve as missionaries (not foreigners).

It's also need. There can only be X number of missionaries in each place...so if you put your papers in when there is a spot in Y, thats where you end up going.

10. Where does the church spend it's "Tithings" and do they show a tax-record/income-expenses report yearly?

Like any other church, it is not obligated to publish an expense report. Tithing money is used on church and temple construction, building maintenance, missionary support, charitable works, and towards institutions like BYU. There are a handful of employees on the payroll, but most people work for free.

11. Why are there no missionaries in the middle east?

Because middle eastern governments won't let us. I think there are around 30 countries where we cannot work.

12. Where are the golden plates now?

God has them.

13. On a scale of 1-10 how "Mormon" or "LDS" do you consider yourself?

"Culturally", I'm not exceptionally Mormon. I do go to church every Sunday, hold a calling, read my scriptures, try to keep the commandments as best I can, visit the temple, and I married a Mormon. I don't know what number that is, but that's pretty Mormon to me.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I will mostly answer the questions that Downtown didn't:

1. How do you defend your prophet joseph smith being an arsonist and setting a paper mill on fire?

Are you referring to how he ordered the destruction of a printing press in Nauvoo? Because otherwise I have no idea what you are talking about.

2. How do you defend the "almost" undisputed fact that your prophet is a schizophrenic (his mom AND dad were both showing signs)

Given how difficult it is to diagnose people with mental disorders when they lived long before those disorders were recognized, I would challenge your claim that it is "almost undisputed" that Joseph Smith or anyone in his family had schizophrenia.

6. Do you believe in the old/new testament, and if so, what conflicts do you feel need to be addressed, and why are they not consistent with the BoM?

Well, the Old Testament and the New Testament were both written over long periods of time, by multiple authors to multiple audiences. The Book of Mormon doesn't conflict with either the Old or New Testament any more than they conflict with each other, or with themselves.

7. Mormonism is not a monotheistic religion. If you deny this, how do you defend it? If you do not deny it, then how do you defend yourself as Christian?

"Monotheism" can mean a lot of things - at its heart, it is the worship of one God, which we believe/practice. Mormon views of God aren't really less monotheistic than, say, the Trinity, and no one disputes that Trinitarians are Christian.

10. Where does the church spend it's "Tithings" and do they show a tax-record/income-expenses report yearly?

The Church doesn't release the exact figures for how tithing money is spent, but we know that it goes largely to things like facilities maintenance and materials that are used by the members (hymn books, or budgets for special events) as well as humanitarian efforts (we have a lot of disaster relief resources, for example). Remember, we don't have a paid/professional clergy.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Because middle eastern governments won't let us. I think there are around 30 countries where we cannot work.

Legally.... That didn't stop the Apostles. Any particular reason it should stop the LDS Church?


And another question, are Mormons allowed to marry non-Mormons? Is there any truth to the thing I've heard about "Evangelistic Dating" where Mormon girls go out and date non-Mormons, get them baptized, and then dump them? (I've heard this somewhere, it might be false.)

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Legally.... That didn't stop the Apostles. Any particular reason it should stop the LDS Church?

We make it a policy to obey local laws wherever we are.

And another question, are Mormons allowed to marry non-Mormons?

It's sort of discouraged, but not actually forbidden.

Is there any truth to the thing I've heard about "Evangelistic Dating" where Mormon girls go out and date non-Mormons, get them baptized, and then dump them? (I've heard this somewhere, it might be false.)

Officially, no. There are probably lots of cases of Mormon girls getting their boyfriends to join the church, and in many cases the guy is motivated more by his attraction to the girl than by faith. And in a lot of cases his activity or interest in the Church wont long outlast the relationship. Usually, however, the girl wasn't dating the guy just to convert him. We joke about "flirt to convert" but I don't think it is actually that common.

 

[GhostWriter16]

We make it a policy to obey local laws wherever we are.

Again... why? It certainly wasn't legal to proselytize in ancient rome, but the Early Christians still did it.

It's sort of discouraged, but not actually forbidden.

OK.

Officially, no. There are probably lots of cases of Mormon girls getting their boyfriends to join the church, and in many cases the guy is motivated more by his attraction to the girl than by faith. And in a lot of cases his activity or interest in the Church wont long outlast the relationship. Usually, however, the girl wasn't dating the guy just to convert him. We joke about "flirt to convert" but I don't think it is actually that common.

Ah, so that's a rumor that came from a joke

Every lie has a bit of truth ya know

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Again... why? It certainly wasn't legal to proselytize in ancient rome, but the Early Christians still did it.

Was it actually legally forbidden? That's a question best discussed in another thread (like Ask a Theologian) but at any rate, the main benefit of having prophets and modern revelation is that you don't have to do something exactly the way they did 2,000 years ago just because you don't know better. Obeying the law is a much better way of handling it than constantly having to bail our missionaries out of prison.

Ah, so that's a rumor that came from a joke

Every lie has a bit of truth ya know

So they say . . .

 

[Red Key]

Again... why? It certainly wasn't legal to proselytize in ancient rome, but the Early Christians still did it.

I have a little to add to what Eran said. In the modern day we can legally proselytize in the majority of the world, so the situation is quite different than the early Christians. Also, God has revealed to our prophets that if we obey the law eventually he will cause those countries that we cannot currently proselytize in to allow us in. For example, not that many years ago we could not proselytize in Eastern European countries, but the Berlin wall came down and other events led to those countries changing. Now we can preach in Eastern European countries. Thus, Mormons believe that God will open the way for us to legally proselytize in a country when it is God's will that we should begin proselyting in that country.

 

[downtown]

Plus, lets be honest. It isn't safe to run around Saudi Arabia as a Christian Missionary. You could get imprisoned (and start a costly diplomatic crisis), or get killed. You'd also be endangering the lives of those you teach.

I wouldn't volunteer to go to a place where I would get arrested (or worse) , especially when those resources can be deployed in so many other places.

We believe that eventually, we'll be able to have access to those countries.

Dating and marrying non members is okay as well. Prior to Mrs.DT, every girl I ever dated was a non-Mormon. I nearly married one.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Plus, lets be honest. It isn't safe to run around Saudi Arabia as a Christian Missionary. You could get imprisoned (and start a costly diplomatic crisis), or get killed. You'd also be endangering the lives of those you teach.

I wouldn't volunteer to go to a place where I would get arrested (or worse) , especially when those resources can be deployed in so many other places.

I wouldn't either at the present time, but there are definitely Christian missionaries who DO work there illegally. Apparently the LDS do not. Are there ANY LDS in those countries?

 

[caketastydelish]

"flirt to convert" sounds risky to me, because supposing you're in a romantic relationship with someone, they're just as likely to convert you to whatever they are as you are to convert them to whatever you are.

Here's some questions:

1. As a mormon, what do you think of Mitt Romney? I mean, are you "excited" for this, or do you not really care?

2. How would you define whether someone is a Mormon or not? I say this because Brandon Flowers, leader of the killers professes to be a Mormon, and some people he's not a "real" one. How would you differentiate a "real" mormon from a "fake" mormon?

 

[downtown]

I wouldn't either at the present time, but there are definitely Christian missionaries who DO work there illegally. Apparently the LDS do not. Are there ANY LDS in those countries?

There are likely a few handfuls in several middle eastern countries that employ American oil workers...but there are no churches. I imagine meetings would have to be held on the DL in private homes.

"flirt to convert" sounds risky to me, because supposing you're in a romantic relationship with someone, they're just as likely to convert you to whatever they are as you are to convert them to whatever you are.

Here's some questions:

1. As a mormon, what do you think of Mitt Romney? I mean, are you "excited" for this, or do you not really care?

2. How would you define whether someone is a Mormon or not? I say this because Brandon Flowers, leader of the killers professes to be a Mormon, and some people he's not a "real" one. How would you differentiate a "real" mormon from a "fake" mormon?

1) Yes, the idea of "flirt to convert" is beyond stupid.

2) I do not care for Mitt Romney. I think that a President Mitt can ultimately be a negative for the church, especially outside of the US...people will not be able to tell teh difference between the church and the head of the govt. I also STRONGLY disagree with him politically....I find the idea of corporations being people to be odious.

2) If you go to church and make some sort of effort to remain in good standing, you're Mormon enough for me.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

"flirt to convert" sounds risky to me, because supposing you're in a romantic relationship with someone, they're just as likely to convert you to whatever they are as you are to convert them to whatever you are.

As missionaries, we would joke about it all the time, but we knew it was a terrible idea. Plus, missionaries aren't supposed to be flirting.

1. As a mormon, what do you think of Mitt Romney? I mean, are you "excited" for this, or do you not really care?

I am not as opposed to his politics as downtown, but I am probably not voting for him. I think his ability to get elected would be a good way to show "how far Mormons have come" so to speak, but it would be a symptom, not a cause, of social acceptance.

I think the majority of American Mormons are voting for him, though.

2. How would you define whether someone is a Mormon or not? I say this because Brandon Flowers, leader of the killers professes to be a Mormon, and some people he's not a "real" one. How would you differentiate a "real" mormon from a "fake" mormon?

Well, there are lots of ways to define it. Are they in good standing with the Church (which means doing stuff like going to church, following the rules such as no drinking/smoking, etc.)? Do they define themselves as Mormon?

The Church's official definition is that they have a record in the Church (which means that they were baptized and confirmed, and haven't been excommunicated or had their records removed). This is the definition the Church uses when we give membership statistics, since it's a more objective measure than "how many people consider themselves Mormon", but it also means that we count as members people who long ago left the church but never withdrew their membership officially, as well as people who were baptized and never realized that makes them Mormon in our eyes.

Personally, I don't ever find myself in the position of having to define someone else's Mormon-ness.