Ask A Protestant Christian II

My original question was about how do you figure out which of the OT rules still had to be followed, but I think that I asked y'all to ignore the ones which are easily justified under some type of 'golden rule' scenario.

I mean, I know that some of the OT rules that fit the "Golden Rule" are still a good idea. But how about the ones that don't easily qualify one way or another?

Dom3k divided it into "moral" vs "cultural" (I think). And I think some people sometimes suggest that "those rules were just for the Jews". How do people tell? Other than by using secular morality, how do protestants pick which parts of the OT still apply? You picked the 10 commandments, but only part of them involve the application of the Golden Rule. Any why did you pick the 10 commandments and not others?

Well, except that we're all sinners. If you're a sinner (and you are), and Jesus died for your sins, then Adam doesn't really matter.

We do not have to "follow" any law, but we are free to form societies where individuals come together and agree on what ever laws they want to live by.

Salvation and the choice to believe the Gospel requires no law. It is a free gift, not of works lest any man should boast.

Adam matters, because he started the disobedience that introduced a sin "nature".
 
Job was not punished. He was tested.

Job's children were killed, I'd say that was a punishment of some sort, or at least felt like a punishment. Or then Job was a sociopath (no sorrow from dead children), or the Christian god is a sociopath (killing Job's children without any recompensation like bringing them back to life). Experiencing the deaths of one's own children is in my opinion something that cannot be compensated by giving more cattle, sheep etc., so at least the test was incredibly unfair. And in that case Christian god isn't the nicest kid on the block.

Satan brought all that upon Job.

God didn't have any problem with Satan bringing all that upon Job, so I don't think that Satan deserves all the blame.
 
God didn't have any problem with Satan bringing all that upon Job, so I don't think that Satan deserves all the blame
If memory serves, God approved the tribulations Satan placed upon Job.
 
Job's children were killed, I'd say that was a punishment of some sort, or at least felt like a punishment. Or then Job was a sociopath (no sorrow from dead children), or the Christian god is a sociopath (killing Job's children without any recompensation like bringing them back to life). Experiencing the deaths of one's own children is in my opinion something that cannot be compensated by giving more cattle, sheep etc., so at least the test was incredibly unfair. And in that case Christian god isn't the nicest kid on the block.
God didn't have any problem with Satan bringing all that upon Job, so I don't think that Satan deserves all the blame.

Some would say that life on earth is punishment. I say that God gives life and God takes life away; Blessed be the name of the LORD. Taking the life of a person away may seem bad to us, and even to the father of said humans. While their life was cut short here, it did not say they were sent to hell. It just means that they no longer had an opportunity to enjoy finite life. God chooses when life is given and when life is taken away. Just because circumstances work out that Satan asked God to take away the life of Job's children and God chose to allow it to happen does not mean that it was a punishment. It says that God allowed it to happen to test Job, at the request of Satan. Also God was boasting to Satan about Job, and Job endured the test and not once cursed God.
 
Some would say that life on earth is punishment. I say that God gives life and God takes life away; Blessed be the name of the LORD. Taking the life of a person away may seem bad to us, and even to the father of said humans. While their life was cut short here, it did not say they were sent to hell. It just means that they no longer had an opportunity to enjoy finite life. God chooses when life is given and when life is taken away. Just because circumstances work out that Satan asked God to take away the life of Job's children and God chose to allow it to happen does not mean that it was a punishment. It says that God allowed it to happen to test Job, at the request of Satan. Also God was boasting to Satan about Job, and Job endured the test and not once cursed God.

It doesn't matter if Job's children went to heaven etc., my point was that according to the Bible, the Christian god brought great sorrow upon Job, and didn't recompensate that in any meaningful way. Job was a deeply religious man, and I assume that his children were the same, so even without that test they all would've gone to heaven. So that test brought only sorrow upon Job and his family, and a god that does things like that sounds like a sociopath to me.
 
It doesn't matter if Job's children went to heaven etc., my point was that according to the Bible, the Christian god brought great sorrow upon Job, and didn't recompensate that in any meaningful way. Job was a deeply religious man, and I assume that his children were the same, so even without that test they all would've gone to heaven. So that test brought only sorrow upon Job and his family, and a god that does things like that sounds like a sociopath to me.

IMO sociopath thinking is to allow Job to curse God and go to hell. The compensation was he and his family went to "heaven" to be with God. Is God just in sending sinners away from His presence when sin cannot even be in His presence? One cannot say that God is a sociopath. That would be the "lack of God". That is the doctrine that God is both good and evil, and that there is a balance that needs to come to pass to reconcile right and wrong. God is pure light and darkness cannot be any where near. God is Holy and no sin can be in His presence. God is not a division. God is one and sin is the "lack" of God. Satan will never be able to serve God again. Even when given an opportunity to, he will not chose to do so. Satan does not want any one else to serve God either. He deceived Eve, and Adam chose to disobey God. After that Salvation comes by Faith in that God is righteous and Jesus was the instrument of correcting Adams wrong choice. Job chose to not give in to Satan and curse God. Job never made the wrong choice. We each have a choice to Obey God, or rise up and say no to God, just like Satan did.
 
IMO sociopath thinking is to allow Job to curse God and go to hell. The compensation was he and his family went to "heaven" to be with God. Is God just in sending sinners away from His presence when sin cannot even be in His presence? One cannot say that God is a sociopath. That would be the "lack of God". That is the doctrine that God is both good and evil, and that there is a balance that needs to come to pass to reconcile right and wrong. God is pure light and darkness cannot be any where near. God is Holy and no sin can be in His presence. God is not a division. God is one and sin is the "lack" of God. Satan will never be able to serve God again. Even when given an opportunity to, he will not chose to do so. Satan does not want any one else to serve God either. He deceived Eve, and Adam chose to disobey God. After that Salvation comes by Faith in that God is righteous and Jesus was the instrument of correcting Adams wrong choice. Job chose to not give in to Satan and curse God. Job never made the wrong choice. We each have a choice to Obey God, or rise up and say no to God, just like Satan did.
But Job and his family would've gone to heaven anyway!

Scenario A: Job and his family are very religious, they live their life just like their god wants them to live it, when they die they all go to heaven.
Scenario B: Job and his family are very religious, Job is "tested" and suffers greatly in almost every imaginable way, Job receives a lame recompensation, when they die they all go to heaven.

And why can't I say that the Christian god is a sociopath? If your god is something that we can't physically see or feel, then how can you claim to know more about him than I? In fact, you can't really claim to know anything about your god, because there is no proof that the Bible is 100% correct.
 
Spoiler :
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

9Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

10Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

11But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

12And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

13And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:

14And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them:

15And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

16While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

17While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

18While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:

19And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

20Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,

21And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

22In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

9Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.


If Job had cursed God, he and his family would have died in their sin. They would not have made it to "heaven". That was the whole point of the test. God did not need to test Job, nor did He have to allow Satan to bring "evil" upon Job. God chose to do what he did and it could have ended just like Adam's ending. It did not. Job was righteouse, even in the midst of his trials.

The Original question was "Why was job punished?" I explained it was not a punishment. It was a test and Job passed. Why did God allow all the suffering and death? God can now say beyond a doubt that it is possible for a human to have all hell go against that man, and that man will still serve and trust God with his whole heart, mind, and body.
 
If Jesus died for our sins (for the sake of argument), where the sins came from is irrelevant, as they're now all gone. The belief in a mythical figure like Adam is no more necessary to believe in the healing power of Christ than is the belief in Zeus and Odin.
 
And you completely skipped my explanation how it was a punishment .__.

I suppose one can believe that righteousness deserves punishment. The majority of the book is Job's friends trying to explain to him that it was punishment. It is clearly pointed out though at the beginning of the book, that it was not a punishment, but a test. Yes, from a human standpoint we do look at most bad things that happen as being punishments. Why would we not, that is our rational way of thinking else we go insane trying to justify why it is not. Having God tell us at the beginning that it was a test is a very great wall that some people cannot get over and they are continually in the dark thinking that God is constantly punishing people like a spoiled child who never gets his way. My God is not like that, and that gives me hope that there is more to this life than misery and pain.

If Jesus died for our sins (for the sake of argument), where the sins came from is irrelevant, as they're now all gone. The belief in a mythical figure like Adam is no more necessary to believe in the healing power of Christ than is the belief in Zeus and Odin.

It is not neccessary to believe anything if one chooses to accept the gift God has given. If a man were righteous before Jesus lived, then one could believe that unless God makes you miserable like He allowed Satan to do to Job, then one could not be allowed in heaven. So if a man today believes he is righteous and nothing bad ever happens to him, then he dies and goes to hell, is that justice? If a man sins and lives in misery his whole life and dies and goes to heaven, is that justice? The only justice would be for one to live in sin and have a great life without pain and then die and go to hell. And if that is the case, then there is no God.

Spoiler :
God was walking through the aeon and happened upon the universe and noticed a planet. Millions of cycles later, God noticed creatures. Millions of cycles later, He noticed primitive man. This intrigued God and he sat back and watched as man developed. After thousands of years, He felt sorry for man and sent a good man who claimed "live like me". Now the people of that day had heard through myths that there may be a greater existence than the one they knew. Since this man did miracles, they saw the need to follow him. There were great leaders who became jealous and killed this man on a cross and God looked away and cried, because no one understood that He had tried. Later the disciples remembered that one was called a stone, and if this stone had faith, then a religion would be born that created a Satan and a God and that this satan would be held at bay until this "church" would right the world of all it's wrongs; and one day there would be a great war and all the mythological powers of the aeons would fight, and this Satan would be destroyed. At the end of cycles, God stopped crying and decided to create a "heaven" for those left on earth to enjoy since man had always dreamed of going past those bright lights in the sky which were later called stars and galaxies. Having the power to go to heaven allowed mankind that ability to do so. And thus humans reached a status that God was able to communicate with them, and that made both happy.
 
I suppose one can believe that righteousness deserves punishment. The majority of the book is Job's friends trying to explain to him that it was punishment. It is clearly pointed out though at the beginning of the book, that it was not a punishment, but a test. Yes, from a human standpoint we do look at most bad things that happen as being punishments. Why would we not, that is our rational way of thinking else we go insane trying to justify why it is not. Having God tell us at the beginning that it was a test is a very great wall that some people cannot get over and they are continually in the dark thinking that God is constantly punishing people like a spoiled child who never gets his way. My God is not like that, and that gives me hope that there is more to this life than misery and pain.
So in the end, it wasn't a punishment but a test only because the Bible says that it was a test?
 
Spoiler :
1Then Job answered the LORD, and said,

2I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

3Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

4Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.

5I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

6Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

7And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

8Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

9So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.

10And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.

11Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

12So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.

13He had also seven sons and three daughters.

14And he called the name of the first, Jemima; and the name of the second, Kezia; and the name of the third, Kerenhappuch.

15And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job: and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren.

16After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations.

17So Job died, being old and full of days.


If God said that it was a punishment, would that make it any more true than God calling it a test? The point is whether one wants to accept is as truth or not. Even if it were just a "great" story that explains an attribute of God or whether it actually happened to someone a long time ago. The principle remains the same. It is in the Bible for a reason. One has the freedom to pick and choose what one believes. The results may be different, but the choice is still there.
 
What did the Canaanites do for God to order a genocide against them?
 
What does this chapter mean to Protestants?


Chapter 4

Behold, thou art fair, my love;
behold, thou art fair;
thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks:
thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.
Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn,
which came up from the washing;
whereof every one bear twins,
and none is barren among them.
Thy lips are like a thread of scarlet,
and thy speech is comely:
thy temples are like a piece of a pomegranate within thy locks.
Thy neck is like the tower of David builded for an armoury,
whereon there hang a thousand bucklers,
all shields of mighty men.
Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins,
which feed among the lilies.
Until the day break, and the shadows flee away,
I will get me to the mountain of myrrh,
and to the hill of frankincense.
Thou art all fair, my love; there is no spot in thee.
Come with me from Lebanon, my spouse, with me from Lebanon:
look from the top of Amana, from the top of Shenir and Hermon,
from the lions' dens, from the mountains of the leopards.
Thou hast ravished my heart, my sister, my spouse;
thou hast ravished my heart with one of thine eyes,
with one chain of thy neck.
How fair is thy love, my sister, my spouse!
how much better is thy love than wine!
and the smell of thine ointments than all spices!
Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb:
honey and milk are under thy tongue;
and the smell of thy garments is like the smell of Lebanon.
A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse;
a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.
Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits;
camphire, with spikenard,
Spikenard and saffron; calamus and cinnamon,
with all trees of frankincense;
myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices:
A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from
Lebanon.
Awake, O north wind; and come, thou south;
blow upon my garden, that the spices thereof may flow out.
Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits.
 
That sounds rather like someone is writing some rather raunchy poetry. I don't have an especial opinion of it.
 
What did the Canaanites do for God to order a genocide against them?

I think the Palestinians are asking the same thing today. When God choses to do something there is little that we can do to stop it. The more people resist the worse off they become.

What does this chapter mean to Protestants?

Sex is enjoyable.
 
I think the Palestinians are asking the same thing today. When God choses to do something there is little that we can do to stop it. The more people resist the worse off they become.

So the Canaanites should have accepted being wiped out because God said so? I thought God was supposed to love all his creation.
 
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