Ask A Red V: The Five-Year Plan

The implication of that question is that we need to wait for capitalism to invent its way into communism by accident, or that we otherwise are unable to attain communism before such an event. That is nonsense. Putting production in the hands of everyday people isn't about 3-D printers, it's about cooperative management of capital for the purpose of the community instead of privately managed capital for the purpose of maximizing profit for the owner. That is and always has been immediately achievable because it has nothing to do with the level of technology whatsoever, but rather how people exercise control over property.
 
The implication of that question is that we need to wait for capitalism to invent its way into communism by accident, or that we otherwise are unable to attain communism before such an event. That is nonsense.
What if we are able to attain communism for social/economical reasons, but unable to switch to it for political reasons - because capitalist elites so far are strong enough to prevent it?

May be the question is not about feasibility of communism, but rather about development of relations of production to the level which makes capitalism unfeasible? I mean, capitalism was able to survive through XX century despite all challenges, by using force or adaptation of some socialistic elements. It may be less progressive, but at the moment it seems stable enough to prevent global emergence of communism, for whatever reasons. What if technological development will eventually cause structural crisis of capitalism - may be it can facilitate switching to communism?
 
Okay, thanks. So I take it that nationalism is not inherently antithetical to communism? That it's legitimate to make use of the nation state until the state can be abolished?

It's a tricky question, because nationalism is antithetical to the traditional conception of communism. And for good reason: Competition between different nations, exacerbated by nationalist narratives, is very unlikely to promote conditions conducive for the formation of truly communist societies.

This is part of the encirclement idea - that perpetual enmity between states is quite likely to produce fascist or semi-fascist regimes that are strengthened by the mutual antagonism, with capitalism perfectly capable of existing alongside (and benefiting from) them. The only exception seems to be with democratic societies that are already very wealthy or have an overwhelming power advantage, and even they will tend to exhibit fascistic tendencies (they also tend to be very militarised, which is convenient for ruling classes that want to maintain their power).

However, historically, communist regimes have found it convenient to harness nationalist energies to defend themselves and their interests. I think that is obviously a path fraught with much danger.

I believe I asked something along similar lines much earlier in the thread or in one of the earlier threads. Particularly I was interested (IIRC) in whether or not the potential rapid distribution of rapid manufacturing techniques (i.e. 3D printing) would lead to the kind of revolution that communism requires where the means of production could be put in the hands of everyday people and begin to make meaningful changes to the relationship between people in capital.

I believe the answer was along the lines of 'the world isn't like Star Trek, go away'.

That's definitely not my answer.

I think technological developments will make it easier, but that is provided modern capitalism doesn't invent ways to limit the ownership of these new means of production. Judging by how things are going right now (with things like the TPP and indefinite extensions of IP), that is a very real prospect.
 
I think technological developments will make it easier, but that is provided modern capitalism doesn't invent ways to limit the ownership of these new means of production. Judging by how things are going right now (with things like the TPP and indefinite extensions of IP), that is a very real prospect.
Valid point and it is kind of like how in response to CD Ripping, all of the music companies began suing the crap out of everyone who used Napster. I can very easily see large corporations trying to claim ownership of various files used to create objects via 3D Printing but as with suing Napster users, they probably can't stop the coming flood.

The capabilities these types of machines have are still infantile but I do see a not-so-distant future where people can break from traditional production systems in a meaningful way. But then at that point, what happens next? The current economic system I think will have a hard time dealing with the transition and the worst-off countries are probably going to be the China's and Vietnam's of the world that produce so much of our consumer goods.
 
What if we are able to attain communism for social/economical reasons, but unable to switch to it for political reasons - because capitalist elites so far are strong enough to prevent it?

I don't think that's really a possibility. No matter what, we laborers are still a vital part of the functioning of capitalism, no matter how far technology advances. Even if everything is built by robots, then someone has to design the robots, maintain them, and so on. And that gives us the decisive power over capitalists: they need us; we don't need them.

May be the question is not about feasibility of communism, but rather about development of relations of production to the level which makes capitalism unfeasible? I mean, capitalism was able to survive through XX century despite all challenges, by using force or adaptation of some socialistic elements. It may be less progressive, but at the moment it seems stable enough to prevent global emergence of communism, for whatever reasons. What if technological development will eventually cause structural crisis of capitalism - may be it can facilitate switching to communism?

Capitalism is constantly creating crises to which communism is the answer. Waiting for capitalism to hit a crisis that will cause us to stumble into communism is a fruitless venture: capitalism thrives on crisis. At times the contradictions of capitalism are heightened by crises and minimized during booms, but they are never absent.

As technology becomes ever more advanced, these contradictions, the mythology and folklore used to justify and maintain the capitalist mode of production and all the inequalities and structural problems it brings (including crises) will become ever more apparent. Take the above example as a sort of climactic end-point: once everything gets made by robots and repaired by robots such that humans are basically removed from the equation (really stupid thing to do IMO, but hey I'm not in charge now am I), then that's about as bare as the contradiction can become, isn't it? At that point there is literally zero explanation for the disparities of wealth and power in society, no justification, nothing to stand on or hide behind, it's just there, in the open, for everyone to see and stare at. That's kind of the logical end-point, isn't it? That would make it the easiest to cause a revolution: everything would be at stake, nothing would be lost by losing, and there would be no excuse for not seeing the necessity of the revolution. So I guess we're slowly moving toward that point, or one just like it, a sort of "singularity for the revolution," if you will. So I think that technology is definitely going to heat things up in the coming years more than it did before, because we are in essence entering a situation where we are literally inventing jobs for people to do in order to stay busy and justify long work days, rather than simply freeing up hands in one job to go to other jobs that need doing, as it was in the past. Not all of us need to work in order for everyone to have everything they need. Perhaps only half or us, or we only need to work half as much as now, if not less. So that contradiction is growing stronger, and I think that makes it easier and easier to talk about how capitalism doesn't put people first and doesn't make our lives better. But I don't think we're going to wake up one morning and accidentally be in communism, because communism is far more than availability of goods, it's also about social power, and the ability and the right of people to have a say in the forces and affairs that govern their lives, chief among which is the distribution of goods and the disposition of social resources like labor, and that kind of power isn't going to be surrendered by the capitalist class without a fight.

You already said that, and I didn't give an analysis. I asked: encircled by what?

I've already answered this question. Encircled by capitalist imperialist powers seeking to undermine and destroy them. Or did you miss the entire 20th century?
 
I've already answered this question. Encircled by capitalist imperialist powers seeking to undermine and destroy them. Or did you miss the entire 20th century?

Seeing as I quoted examples from that century, that's a rather redundant question. Let's try and put it very simple for you:

What capitalist imperialist powers were seeking to undermine (changed from encircled, I guess) and destroy Yugoslavia and China and when did they do so?

(Which raises the following question: Why did these powers suddenly stop their supposed efforts? But we'll save that for now, shall we.)
 
At that point there is literally zero explanation for the disparities of wealth and power in society, no justification, nothing to stand on or hide behind, it's just there, in the open, for everyone to see and stare at. That's kind of the logical end-point, isn't it? That would make it the easiest to cause a revolution: everything would be at stake, nothing would be lost by losing, and there would be no excuse for not seeing the necessity of the revolution. So I guess we're slowly moving toward that point, or one just like it, a sort of "singularity for the revolution," if you will.
Interesting. Is there a reason when it becomes so clear and ready for a system switch it wouldn't then happen sector-by-sector or legislation?
 
Interesting. Is there a reason when it becomes so clear and ready for a system switch it wouldn't then happen sector-by-sector or legislation?

There is no precedent. The elements of socialism are built within capitalism (socialization of the workforce; concentration of the means of production into central hands, etc) but as long as the class in state power remains committed to the old system, they can fend off any attempts to replace them within the existing system.

Venezuela, Bolivia and Ecuador did something interesting: the socialists got voted into power in the current system, then changed the system to favor the working class.
 
What capitalist imperialist powers were seeking to undermine (changed from encircled, I guess) and destroy Yugoslavia and China and when did they do so?

Since 1947, NATO and the other regional alliances designed to hem in "Soviet Aggression," plus regional capitalist allies to the imperialist camp, like South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan. Yugo and China were as much their target as the Eastern Bloc.

Before then, the Entente and its satellite pacts (the Little Entente and Baltic Entente), plus the United States and affiliate capitalist powers.

(Which raises the following question: Why did these powers suddenly stop their supposed efforts? But we'll save that for now, shall we.)

They didn't. In Yugoslavia they succeeded in brilliant fashion. In China they haven't yet but have forced important concessions from the Communist Party, including this growing capitalist sector in the Chinese economy.

Interesting. Is there a reason when it becomes so clear and ready for a system switch it wouldn't then happen sector-by-sector or legislation?

Power. Power is at the root of the entire logic of capitalism. They will not give up their rule over society because they think they deserve it and that we do not. The way they rationalize it changes with the times, but that point remains.

ReindeerThistle said:
Venezuela, Bolivia and Ecuador did something interesting: the socialists got voted into power in the current system, then changed the system to favor the working class.

Don't be so quick to praise them yet. They have yet to cross the violent threshold and destroy capitalist control over the state itself. They are not socialist societies. Not yet. The biggest part of the crisis in Venezuela is the contradiction created by their unwillingness or inability right now to do that, their march forward having reached the limitations of working within the system.
 
Since 1947, NATO and the other regional alliances designed to hem in "Soviet Aggression," plus regional capitalist allies to the imperialist camp, like South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan. Yugo and China were as much their target as the Eastern Bloc.

Yes, but we are discussing Yugoslavia. They weren't Soviet. Secondly, NATO has nothing to do with the Communist victory in China, which happened 2 years after. The 'regional alliances' didn't perform any kind of aggression. So the question stands.

In Yugoslavia they succeeded in brilliant fashion. In China they haven't yet but have forced important concessions from the Communist Party, including this growing capitalist sector in the Chinese economy.

Yugoslavia collapsed from nationalism after Tito's death. What does that have to with capitalist aggression?

Capitalism forced concessions from the CCP? So, you are claiming it wasn't the CCP's own decision to allow capitalism under a Communist umbrella? Based on which sources?
 
Don't be so quick to praise them yet. They have yet to cross the violent threshold and destroy capitalist control over the state itself. They are not socialist societies. Not yet. The biggest part of the crisis in Venezuela is the contradiction created by their unwillingness or inability right now to do that, their march forward having reached the limitations of working within the system.
Don't be so quick to judge. There are many contradictions in Venezuela, but willingness to destroy the capitalist control of the state is not one of them. Current ability to do so may be. And, of course they are not socialist societies, but they are building the socialist apparatus alongside and independent (in many cases) of the government. See FRETECO and Comunas en Construccion -- they are coverting the pre-1999 Bolivarian grassroots groups into soviet-like apparatus.

Bolivia, likewise. Ecuador less so. I have a lot of inside info on this.

However, judge them by company they keep; Communists support all movements that seek to change the existing social order, always keeping the property question up front and always representing the movement as a whole.

While Lenin said that peaceful (and these places are far from peaceful) transitions to worker control of the state are unprecedented, it is not impossible.

Also, as long as the USA remains the current head of the reactionary forces of the world, NONE of these nations stands a chance.
 
Yes, but we are discussing Yugoslavia. They weren't Soviet. Secondly, NATO has nothing to do with the Communist victory in China, which happened 2 years after. The 'regional alliances' didn't perform any kind of aggression. So the question stands.

And thus during their existence were encircled by them and the other capitalist alliances around the world. SEATO, CENTO, Japan, RoK, etc.

Yugoslavia collapsed from nationalism after Tito's death. What does that have to with capitalist aggression?

Learn some basic history. It's not my job to educate you as Google can easily answer this question for you.

However since I am feeling unusually generous this morning, here, Michael Parenti gave a talk on his book about the organized destruction of Yugoslavia called "To Kill A Nation." He gets to the issue of Yugoslavia after a couple minutes.


Link to video.

Capitalism forced concessions from the CCP? So, you are claiming it wasn't the CCP's own decision to allow capitalism under a Communist umbrella? Based on which sources?

Since it's clear that you have no interest in actually using the gray matter between your ears to figure basic things out in this thread, I won't be responding to you any more. Please stop posting in this thread.

Moderator Action: This and the above are flaming. This is RD, (and this falls below even non-RD civility standards here).
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Don't be so quick to judge. There are many contradictions in Venezuela, but willingness to destroy the capitalist control of the state is not one of them. Current ability to do so may be. And, of course they are not socialist societies, but they are building the socialist apparatus alongside and independent (in many cases) of the government. See FRETECO and Comunas en Construccion -- they are coverting the pre-1999 Bolivarian grassroots groups into soviet-like apparatus.

Bolivia, likewise. Ecuador less so. I have a lot of inside info on this.

However, judge them by company they keep; Communists support all movements that seek to change the existing social order, always keeping the property question up front and always representing the movement as a whole.

While Lenin said that peaceful (and these places are far from peaceful) transitions to worker control of the state are unprecedented, it is not impossible.

Also, as long as the USA remains the current head of the reactionary forces of the world, NONE of these nations stands a chance.

Yes of course. I am simply pointing out the difference between the concepts of "Venezuelan socialism" and "Socialist Venezuela." The former exists, the latter does not yet, whether that's their fault or not.
 
However since I am feeling unusually generous this morning, here, Michael Parenti gave a talk on his book about the organized destruction of Yugoslavia called "To Kill A Nation." He gets to the issue of Yugoslavia after a couple minutes.


Link to video.
:hatsoff:

To Kill a Nation is an awesome study of how the imperialists use liberals bent on fighting Stalin's ghost in their campaign to end Yugoslavia.

Stalin's ghost, of course, is winning.

Yes of course. I am simply pointing out the difference between the concepts of "Venezuelan socialism" and "Socialist Venezuela." The former exists, the latter does not yet, whether that's their fault or not.
Correct. But we provide critical support for Venezuelan and Cuban nationals in the US. My wife organized speech pathology sessions for a Venezuelan consulate staff member's child; we provide medical care to Cuban diplomats in NYC. They talk. We teach and we learn.
 
And thus during their existence were encircled by them and the other capitalist alliances around the world. SEATO, CENTO, Japan, RoK, etc.

China was also 'encircled' by the USSR. As was Yugoslavia by Warsaw Pact.

At any rate, nothing resulted from this supposed encirclement. Like Yugoslavia, the USSR eventually collapsed on it own accord. Leaving poor China all encircled - and doing well.

To Kill a Nation is an awesome study of how the imperialists use liberals bent on fighting Stalin's ghost in their campaign to end Yugoslavia.

Stalin's ghost, of course, is winning.

Unless Stalin was all in favour of nationalist democratic capitalism, I fail to see the point here.

So, in Reds' view, Yugoslavia was not destroyed by the nationalism no longer controlled by Tito, but by imperialist 'using' liberals to fight Stalin's ghost - in Yugoslavia. That's so enlightening. Let's not deal with nationalism, let's just call it imperialism and be done with it. That idea?
 
Anti-encirclememt camapign...
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Not just pics; vids..

Proof of the superiority of socialist musical education.


Link to video.

Yes we know him, he's donating a concert tonight.

Better Red than Dead.
 
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