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I believe low taxes on the rich will inevitably be better for the poor. More investments from the rich means more employment opportunities for the poor, as well as more donations to charity.

This has been proven to be not the case.

If you mean that literally, no you don't. If you mean that metaphorically, then yes, as this is called free speech. Are you saying socialism would disbar freedom of speech?
I'm saying that with socialism, poor people will have their interests protected. With capitalism, only the corporations' interests are protected.



I don't believe this one bit. I guess that shows how much socialists actually care about poor people, though.
I was being sarcastic. You pretend to sound so insulted that a person would use sarcasm.



The reason for that is because there isn't enough for anybody. If there aren't enough homes for anybody, then at some point, somebody isn't going to have one. However, food has become prolific enough in developed countries that everybody can be fed just from charity.

There are definitely enough homes. Many Americans own more than 1 (with former Presidential candidate John McCain owning 7).
 
I believe low taxes on the rich will inevitably be better for the poor. More investments from the rich means more employment opportunities for the poor, as well as more donations to charity.

I'd just like to comment on this. More government spending can also create employment opportunities for the poor and be used for charitable purposes, without any of it being used to support lavish lifestyles for the rich, so I would say it works better for benefiting the poor than giving the rich a low tax rate.
 
This has been proven to be not the case.

JFK cut taxes on the rich, and employment went up. Reagan cut taxes on the rich, employment went up. I would say that it's been proven to work quite effectively.

Now before you bring up GWB, I point out that our current economic crisis (inflation, national debt, fluctuating gas prices, bankruptcies) has disbarred most of the benefits you'd see from low taxes.

I'm saying that with socialism, poor people will have their interests protected. With capitalism, only the corporations' interests are protected.

That's called corporatism. A true capitalist system would protect everybody's rights, property or otherwise.


There are definitely enough homes. Many Americans own more than 1 (with former Presidential candidate John McCain owning 7).

I wouldn't call America a truly capitalist system, though. The Federal Reserve plus corporate bail-outs, altogether, is "socialism for the rich", or corporatism.

This is not to say that I support absolute laissez-faire capitalism. I prefer a hybrid system with universal health care, public transportation and accident insurance. (But not free housing, universal college tuition, food stamps or otherwise.) However, an absolute socialist system would be worse, as we've seen from various points in history.
 
How are food stamps, free housing, and universal college tuition bad?

I think the free market handles these things better than a central government could.
 
Many people cannot afford to go to college because of tuition or are forced to choose inferior colleges because of price. Also, people who have food stamps can't afford food otherwise.
 
How are food stamps, free housing, and universal college tuition bad?

Food stamps and the welfare system in general, locks people into their socio-economic situation. Reliance breeds apathy. Coupled with Drugs on the Streets (and socialists do not take a hard stance on this) and you have what is called Chicago's South Side (never been there so I could be wrong).

Free-housing. Is going to be sub-par. Costs will be important and the best way is substandard. And again, we see the problems associated with 'free-housing' and that is people trashing their homes.

Universal college tuition. Is it for everyone or just those who qualify. If it is for everyone, that means you will get highly educated incompetents cluttering the highly paid professional sector. But, if you go with a merit system that creates an underclass of 'defected, deginerate or unworthy'.

Again, something given has no value.
 
Alright, so what is your take on Marx? Like him, love him, hate him?


Or has the majority of "reds" moved beyond marx into post-marxism.
 
I tend to think that Christ and the early church did oppose slavery, they just also opposed using force to end it.




I view the last supper (in part) as Jesus ceremonially freeing the disciples from slavery. Note that he specifically states "You are My Friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you slaves..." implying that they were indeed slaves formerly, but not anymore. He also called us to do the same from time to time, which would mean we are supposed to free our slaves too.

Slaves at the time were not permitted to dine with their masters (except during Saturnalia, which celebrated Saturn's rule during Golden Age when slavery did not exist and humanity was egalitarian and everyone prospered without having to labor). A master would not dine with his slave until he freed him. Often masters just asking the slaves they wished to free to dine with them and their friends instead of going though the more legalistic ceremonies associated with manumission. The other methods of freeing a slave would have been very inappropriate for Christ. In one, the court declared that the master was holding the slave in slavery unjustly, and demanded that he free the man after first having the master inflict corporal punishment (usually feigned) on the slave one last time. This would imply that God had no real authority over us, that he has treated us unjustly, there is a higher authority forcing him to free us against his will, and that he would vindictively punish us for seeking freedom from him. In the second method the slave would purchase his freedom using the money the master had allowed him to earn. This would imply that we can earn our salvation though good works and that there is some payment that God wants from us. By simply asking the slave to dine with him the master was declaring that he wished to free the slave of his own free will, not because the enslavement was unjust or because the slave had earned anything, but because the master loved the slave and would rather have a friend and an equal than human chattel. ("Equal" isn't quite right, as the social standing of the former slave would never be that high and because the freedman was still considered to have a moral although not a legal obligation to become a Client of the master and do favors for him.) (If the master kept treating the slave as a slave the slave could later take the master to court and demand his freedom using the testimony of the other guests as evidence. Actually, I believe that that was necessary in order to gain the full rights of citizenship like voting, although in the mean time they already had the same freedom and social standing they would have otherwise. This future appearance in court seems to be implied as what would happen in the Day of Judgment.)



I forget where, but I remember that one of the churches is strongly condemned for having the free and slaves seperate during Communion. It seems to me that they would do so to avoid having to free their Christian slaves as they had a spiritual obligation to do. In the book of Philemon Paul sent the slave Onesimus back to him master, but implored the master to accept him not as a slave but as a brother, so he was expecting him to be freed.


Christians were not supposed to defy or rebel against their masters, but Christian masters also had a duty not to oppress their slaves, never to hold a fellow Christian as a slave, and to share the gospel with everyone they could, which would certainly include his own slaves. It might have been nice if the Bible also said Christians should not hold non-Christians as slaves, but it is silent on that point. Slaves of Christians may have had a better life than they would have as poor freedmen though, plus they would know an easy way to become free if they want to.



In general Christianity largely agrees with Communism on many things, but it always insists that it be voluntary. It is strongly opposed to using force, so it is more Left Libertarian than Communist.
 
Moderator Action: Enough threadjacking. Keep on topic.
 
JFK cut taxes on the rich, and employment went up. Reagan cut taxes on the rich, employment went up. I would say that it's been proven to work quite effectively.

Please, DO NOT MIX UP SUPPLY SIDE ECONOMICS WITH THE TECHNOLOGY BOOM OF THE 1980's. Thank you. :)

Edit: Whoops, didn't see Whomp's post. Sorry. :(
 
My good sir's, what effect has the Soviet Union had on socialism in general. I know the stock answer is to say that it is either a deformed workers state(Trotsky), a state capitalist state(Cliff), or simply a complete bastardization of socialism.

But what are your answers to this?
 
Thanks, Whomp.
I apologize for neglecting this thread, but I will catch up on Friday unless I decide to have this thread closed.
I must again draw everybody's attention to the house rules in the OP.
 
Do you see science as democratizing, and do you believe the concepts of "truth" and "scientific progress" are valid? Or, in your position, are they merely part of a dominant ideology that you wish to overthrow along with economic class relations? (As far as I know, I am aware of Marxist critiques in both veins.) Can you comment on the different approaches to this topic in the revolutionary camp?
 
My apologies again, but I will not have any time to look into this thread again before the weekend.
However stay tuned, as all serious questions will be answered in due time.
 
Would changing from capitalism to communism involve major changes in any non economic aspects of society? Would it have any affect on language, culture, etc.?
 
Wouldn't you rather be dead? :p

No, just kidding. How's it hanging man?

How awesome was it when Obama was elected?

Hope they don't do a JFK on his poor ass. :(
 
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