Ask a red

[Crezth]

At this point I do not because still none has been given.

Do not focus on era and area; every era of communism has the hallmarks of genocide and destruction. The Soviet Union, China, Cambodia - it matters not. How does Communism justify these crimes? Does it at all? And if not, then how is it justifiable on its own?

 

[plarq]

At this point I do not because still none has been given.

Do not focus on era and area; every era of communism has the hallmarks of genocide and destruction. The Soviet Union, China, Cambodia - it matters not. How does Communism justify these crimes? Does it at all? And if not, then how is it justifiable on its own?

So the real question is, "Did those atrocities happen?"
and, "If they happened, how much fault it is in communist/socialist ideologies?"

 

[plarq]

And my question, "How can socialists/communists persuade people in the developed countries to adopt the new era of socialism, peace and prosperities?"

 

[Richard Cribb]

DISCLAIMER: this post is written in a hurry, so there might be more than a few errors. I will probably edit and flesh it out later.

I guess that I'm not leader material, for I would seriously consider surrender if I believes that the damage from conflict would be higher that from defeat. For example, I still admire this man, in my own country, for having quited power voluntarily when he could instead have pushed the country into what would likely turn into a civil war and foreign invasion (by our dear american allies).Of, course, if we're talking about Stalin and WW2, surrender was never an option for the USSR.
It's the events on the GDR, 1953, Hungary 1956, Czechoslovakia 1968, etc., which I find hard to justify - even if I do suspect that hostile forces were ready to exploit those.

The russian revolution did improve people's lives, eventually. But at a terrible price, one which I would never be comfortable asking for. That's why the question of how a revolution can be justified interests me.

OK, first of all, who is and who is not "leader" material is in my opinion something that is only proven when one is put to the test in real life. I think I know very few people who would have acted that different if they had been in the Bolshevik leadership at any given point of time pre-WW2 for instance.
I must also remind you that estimating what is causing a damagemost of continuing a revolution or give in to a ruthles enemy and see the perpetuation of a fundamentally unjust system is not necesarily the first...
I will readily concede that your knowledge of Portuguese history is superior to mine, but I still think that it is mostly irrelevant in comparison with the Russian revolution, it is too different.
Finally, I think that very few will disagree that the progress in the USSR costed much, perhaps too much. But except the trivial observation that this seems to hold for any sort of progressive change of socio-economic systems, I am unable to see how things could have been carried out fundamentally different. We live in an impeerfect world, and I think that there are historical situation where we have to go with the least evil alternative.
I am afraid we must respectfully disagree on this one.

First of all, I want to ask what is your defintion of "fascism". Is Fascism not just a market economy with an authoritian government???

No it isn't.
Common tenets in classical fascism like in Italy and Germany was:
- Leadership cults and glorification of a great leader.
- The worship of the nation-state, to which the individual is subsumed.
- Glorificationof the military, jingoism and an aggressive foreign policy.
- Propagation of folk mysticism, xenophobia and racism.
- And last, but not least suppression of labour unions and other working class organization to the benefit of big business.
In my opinion the class character of fascism is the most important. It is possible to imagine a slick, more rational fascism which replaces the charismatic dictator with a Big-Business - Big government power structure, one that can use more subtle methods for suppressing and pacifying the people.

Second of all, am I considered a fascist???? or an evil speculator(for short selling the stock market)???? Will speculation be banned in the socialist state???

I don't know you well enough yet, but I don't consider you one even if you have a certain potential.
Specualation is evil, the one doing it necessarily not.
And yes, it will be banned.

Third of all, how do you plan to reward those persons who display superior abilities in Socialism???? will they be given higher pay or the same pay as others???? if they are given the same pay as others what will be the incentive for improving services or technological innovation??? Will that not create a culture of mediocrity????

People who excel in different ways will be rewarded materially or socially, that everybody will be paid exactly the same in a socialist society is but a bourgeois myth.

Fourth of all, how would a new socialist state "compete" with capitalist economies??? Would a socialist economy be able to produce goods at a cheaper price??? or with better quality??? Would it be able to match capitalist countries in performance??? If not, how could the socialist state prevent the people taking part in the socialist state having second thoughts/escaping from socialism????

There is now reason why an advanced socialist state shouldn't compete successfuly given that the competition is fair.
If people want to leave, they are free to do so. However those who got a free education from the society should recompensate financially.

Fifth of all, by eliminating all forms of "exploition", have you considered that entrepreneurs who set up businesses most likely work harder than their employees???? I don't like hereditary wealth passing from father to son but should you penalize the success of entrepreneurs who took risk and got rewarded???

I don't think they work harder.

Thank you for your explanations. It cleared up some things.

I do still have a few questions.

In my teenage years, in addition to spending time reading how to speculate in the stock market, I also read various economic theories. Obviously, one of them is socialism.

One point which I take with socialism is their notion that a person may work for simply work. I agree some people will do work for this purpose(myself sometimes, as I don't like to be idle.) But from what I have observed most people will not work unless they are forced. Now just like a capitalist society a proposed socialist society will need people to do the various jobs. How will socialists be able to force people to do these various jobs(besides using brute force like Mao and Stalin)???? Also how will socialists deal with the problem of free-riders, say people who call in sick every day and do not work???

People work to produce goods and services they need, also under socialism.

Second point: Many people in the socialist society may feel they will have a better chance in a capitalistic society. Knowing this, they will eventually advocate capitalism. How will the socialist society continue once more and more of these people become "Closet capitalists"?

I think many people will actually discover they have a better chance in a society where quality education and health service do not depend on the thickness of your parents wallet to a large degree.

To take a crude example, take a "speculator" like myself. Wouldn't most of these people try to move to other countries, or become closet saboteurs in the socialist country???

Perhaps. But most people would remain,

Also, how will a socialist society reward talent? for example, I feel it would be unfair if one person say contributes much more to society(say, he invents a cure for cancer) and yet he is in the same or even a similar condition to a "free-rider" who does no work. Should talent not be rewarded?

See above. Talent will be rewarded.

Third point:One of the best things about capitalism(in my opinion) is that it is able to meet demand with supply; capitalists will produce what is profitable, meeting the demand. How will the socialists know what is needed(short of taking a survey of every household)???

You are confusing demand and need.
Demand is when you want something and have the purchasing power to get it, for instance I am a billionaire who want a large pig made of solid gold.
Need is when you lack something essential to you, for instance I am a poor American with an urgent need for a kidney treatment.
Socialists recognize capitalisms splendid ability to satisfy demands, but are not exactly impressed about same system's record regarding needs.

Fourth point: Do you think that a socialist country can survive in a world of capitalist nations??? or does a revolution need to occur simaltenously in all the major powers in order for socialism to survive???? As it seems to me if even one capitalist major power survives, it would be able to outcompete most socialist countries.

Yes I think so.

Fifth point: Do you consider Scanadanvia an example of socialism???? Scandanvia's governments as I recall have over 50% of the economy in the public sector, which means all those capitalists combined cannot match the public. Is that not a characteristic of socialism???

That has little to do with socialism.

Sixth point: I realize one of socialism's doctrines is that workers are exploited because the capitalist takes part of the value of the labor of the workers away. However, doesn't the capitalist deserve some credit as he/she assembled the workers, the machinery, so the goods can actually be produced. I mean, without the capitalist, we couldn't match the workers up with the machinery to produce things. Didn't he create most of the extra value(as workers on themselves, I noticed, usually don't produce their own products with their own machinery- mercantilist era of China(Han-Tang) and Europe (1500-1700) excepted.[/QUOTE
How do you think the capitalist could get the machinery in the first hand?

Seventh Point: I realize socialism's goal is equality for all, but has it occured to you that sometimes people are not equal in ability???? Some people get 90% averages, others 80%, others 70%. How can everyone's income be made equal, if people's abilities are unequal????

See above.

Eighth Point: How will the common man benefit from socialism???? I mean even in "capitalist" economies like the US, you have a welfare system that basically feeds the poor and make sure they have a pretty good life. How will a common family benefit from the change? for example, in my neighbourhood, a typical family has a home paid off, and several hundred thousand dollars in savings, a moderate amount. They are not rich, but they are not poor either. Solid middle class. How will they benefit???

By not being exploited.
USA has huge social problems and enormous wealth disparity. it is not by any means a model society.
Unless you are joking, your neighbourhood is quite rich, to say the least.

Well, I have some nationalism, but I disagree with the rest of them, unless free market competition is "social darwinism".

It is one version of it.

Anyways to sum it up, I think the main difference between capitalism and socialism is that socialists think that the profit motive is weaker than the motive for collective good(also known as altruism) while capitalists believe the opposite. So far, it seems capitalism is coming on top. However, if socialism does succeed in a large country(it doesn't count if it succeeds in a country with 100 million barrels of oil to the man), I might change my views.

It is quite a good observation.
But I want to add that the profit motive is pretty much a social construct.

Do you like Venezuela's model? Do you like Chavez? This is specifically directed to Cheezy, though I would like Luce to also answer it.

I am a bit more positive, but I ave to return to this later.

You should have read the past 427 posts in this thread. There are many different types of communists, just like there are many different capitalists. Do all capitalists espouse the views of Pinochet? No. Likewise, not all (or even most) communists are Stalinists. Not to mention Stalin wasn't so much communist as kleptocratic fascist.

The millions dead are arguments against fascist or totalitarian government, not a communist economic system.

Sorry but it seems to me that you have no idea what either fascism or kleptocracy is, and I see thisas insultig against a society that contributed and sacrificed the most in the struggle against fascism.

And my question, "How can socialists/communists persuade people in the developed countries to adopt the new era of socialism, peace and prosperities?"

I have answered this already. Sticking to our principles, adapt to the time and society we live in, work ceaselessly for our case in all possible ways and most of all be patient.

As for the new troll:

[/IMG]

 

[Azale]

As for the new troll:

[/IMG]

Deal! I'll speak for all capitalists and "the ruling classes":

1. Our bad! I don't think this is entirely attributable to capitalists and "the ruling classes" (which is a human institution that goes back to the dawn of civilization) but no problem! Also, some might consider the USSR's domination of various SSR's to be colonialism. Some might.
2. Isn't this the crux of the matter? Oh well, we all apologize for it. There have never been gratuitous privileges given to the political ruling class in socialist-aspirant countries though I am sure.
3. Hey, we fixed this didn't we? Oh well, bad mistake.
4. I thought we fixed this too? Sorry!
5. Children in coalmines...well, we eventually put them in school to better serve the economy! So, it was a mistake to have them lifting coal with their tiny little hands.
6. We apologize
7. Probably went a bit overboard. We should've shown as much control as the socialists did in combating perceived enemies of the state
8. Slavery was inefficient anyway. Please accept our apology!
9. I swear us capitalists and "the ruling classes" just love wanton war. McKinley should be tried for war crimes. Sorry!
10. We didn't mean anything by it!
11. Starvation is our greatest sin, solely attributable to capitalists and "the ruling classes". We apologize.
12. Racism is intrinsically capitalist. We should all be ashamed.
13. Don't we have unions now? Really powerful unions? Oh well, apologiez
14. LOL our bad!
15. Hey, what do you have against the Dutch? Oh well, we apologize for Flanders.
16. Trench warfare is a truly capitalist creation. Socialist armies move inexorably forward swelled with the pride of the revolution. Apologies.
17. Socialists prefer Ketchup Gas and it is clear that it is superior. Capitalist mustard gas is a bourgeois invention made to keep Flanders down! Apologies.
18. The USSR won WW2 and did not even build a plane! Truly amazing. Capitalist aerial bombing is the strategy of cowards. Apologies.
19. Wouldn't Soviet intervention be a good thing? Oh well, I shouldn't question socialist sensibilities. Apologies.
20. Freaking capitalist Turkish . .. .. .. .. .. .. .s. If they were socialist, they would have lived side by side and held hands with their Armenian brothers! Apologies.
21. Hey, I already apologized for mustard gas! Oh well, apologies for the rest of chemical weaponry. The Soviets had no choice but to mass stockpile chem weapons to keep up with warmongering capitalists.
22. Fascism doesn't even have any fancy books. Useless. Our apologies!
23. The free market solves everything! Except Depressions LOL, sorry!
24. Are we apologizing for the hunger marches or for hunger itself? Well I'm sorry we forced them to go marching.
25. Only capitalists could possibly be as rasist as the Nazis were. They threw off their socialist roots in the name of spreading capitalism far and wide. Apologies.
26. Franco was a hero of capitalists and "the ruling classes", but the Republic was the hero of the people! Apologies.
27. Socialist countries spread their doctrine without the use of an army! Capitalists did so solely by gunpoint. I apologize for militarism!
28. The Capitalist invention of lung disease is truly sickening. I apologize.
29. The USSR never had horrible radiation accidents, unlike the USA who nuked children and watering holes to maximize the damage. Apologies.
30. The Massacre of Nanking never would have happened if Japan was spreading it's socialist doctrine to it's capitalist neighbors in China! Apologies.
31. Well, I already apologized for fascism and Nanking and...oh well, SORRY!
32. Belsen was bad. Sorry.
33. Dresden was definitely disproportionate to what the rest of WW2 dictated! I know the Soviets never enacted wholesale destruction nor any other Socialist country! Apologies, deeply.
34. Only a capitalist society is capable of rasism and there was no rasism to be found in a socialist country. Only a rasist can not see this. Apologies.
35. The only good Italian is a cooking Italian! Sorry, that's just my capitalist rasism talking. Sorry for the mob!
36. The USSR definitely never would have sought a nuclear program unless the capitalistas had done it first. Advanced capitalist science of course can only be applied to weaponry and death! Apologies!
37. But the North invaded....uhh, I mean, sorry!
38. Even the bugs in socialist countries find themselves swept up in revolutionary fervor! In capitalist society, they must be killed out of existence, just as every other capitalist enemy! Apologies.
39. McCarthy was an enemy of the people. Apologies.
40. Whoopsies!
41. The Socialists never constructed blacklists of state enemies, yet the capitalists list were so thorough they even had blacklists of who could work in a factory! Apologies.
42. Apologies for that.
43. Shame! We sincerely are sorry.
44. No one is poor in a socialist society! Apologies.
45. I already apologized for militarism, WW1, AND WW2 but I suppose I can find it in my cold, dark, capitalist heart to apologize for the arms race too. The Soviets merely borrowed the weapons their own people selflessly built out of the kindness of their hearts for the state. Apologies.
46. If the state grants you a face, you should be happy with it! Apologies for plastic surgery.
47. The electrical chair was a purely capitalist convention, to exploit the criminal so he would....work for his...execution? Apologies.
48. The industrialization of the capitalist world has ruined our world! Good thing the socialist nations have never embarked on hazardous crash industrialization with little regard for the environment! Phew! Apologies.
49. Sorry!
50. The Greeks to this day despise capitalists, they are just waiting for the moment to burst into revolution. Apologies.
51. We
52. are
53. so
54. very
55. really
56. sorry
57. about
58. that.
59. Saddam Hussein was a true socialist, destroying the bourgeois oppression in Kuwait! Apologies.
60. Us capitalists can't get enough human body parts. Especially through illegal back channels. They uh...get 100 miles to the gallon. Apologies.
61. There has never been malnutrition in a socialist-aspirant country! Apologies.
62. Environmental disasters, as covered before, are exclusive to capitalist countries. Apologies.
63. Every tree is sacred in socialist societies! Also, capitalism never values forestation as an alternative to deforestation even though it guarantees future business for loggers. Apologies.
64. Well, I already apologized for the mafia but I suppose I can apologize for all organized crime that has ever existed as well.
65. Capitalist sucktitude has led our people to sniff rocks! Truly saddening. We apologize.
66. Tuberculosis gives revenue to the hospital bourgeois, this is why capitalists invented and spread it. Apologies.
67. Well, I already apologized for environmental degradation but I don't see why I can't throw the ozone layer in there too! Apologies.
68. Cancer is a capitalist invention, through the carcinogens of industry that, we have established, socialist societies have never valued. Apologies.
69. Sincerest apologies for all that mess!

Okay, your turn!

 

[Richard Cribb]

Deal! I'll speak for all capitalists and "the ruling classes":

1. Our bad! I don't think this is entirely attributable to capitalists and "the ruling classes" (which is a human institution that goes back to the dawn of civilization) but no problem! Also, some might consider the USSR's domination of various SSR's to be colonialism. Some might.
2. Isn't this the crux of the matter? Oh well, we all apologize for it. There have never been gratuitous privileges given to the political ruling class in socialist-aspirant countries though I am sure.
3. Hey, we fixed this didn't we? Oh well, bad mistake.
4. I thought we fixed this too? Sorry!
5. Children in coalmines...well, we eventually put them in school to better serve the economy! So, it was a mistake to have them lifting coal with their tiny little hands.
6. We apologize
7. Probably went a bit overboard. We should've shown as much control as the socialists did in combating perceived enemies of the state
8. Slavery was inefficient anyway. Please accept our apology!
9. I swear us capitalists and "the ruling classes" just love wanton war. McKinley should be tried for war crimes. Sorry!
10. We didn't mean anything by it!
11. Starvation is our greatest sin, solely attributable to capitalists and "the ruling classes". We apologize.
12. Racism is intrinsically capitalist. We should all be ashamed.
13. Don't we have unions now? Really powerful unions? Oh well, apologiez
14. LOL our bad!
15. Hey, what do you have against the Dutch? Oh well, we apologize for Flanders.
16. Trench warfare is a truly capitalist creation. Socialist armies move inexorably forward swelled with the pride of the revolution. Apologies.
17. Socialists prefer Ketchup Gas and it is clear that it is superior. Capitalist mustard gas is a bourgeois invention made to keep Flanders down! Apologies.
18. The USSR won WW2 and did not even build a plane! Truly amazing. Capitalist aerial bombing is the strategy of cowards. Apologies.
19. Wouldn't Soviet intervention be a good thing? Oh well, I shouldn't question socialist sensibilities. Apologies.
20. Freaking capitalist Turkish . .. .. .. .. .. .. .s. If they were socialist, they would have lived side by side and held hands with their Armenian brothers! Apologies.
21. Hey, I already apologized for mustard gas! Oh well, apologies for the rest of chemical weaponry. The Soviets had no choice but to mass stockpile chem weapons to keep up with warmongering capitalists.
22. Fascism doesn't even have any fancy books. Useless. Our apologies!
23. The free market solves everything! Except Depressions LOL, sorry!
24. Are we apologizing for the hunger marches or for hunger itself? Well I'm sorry we forced them to go marching.
25. Only capitalists could possibly be as rasist as the Nazis were. They threw off their socialist roots in the name of spreading capitalism far and wide. Apologies.
26. Franco was a hero of capitalists and "the ruling classes", but the Republic was the hero of the people! Apologies.
27. Socialist countries spread their doctrine without the use of an army! Capitalists did so solely by gunpoint. I apologize for militarism!
28. The Capitalist invention of lung disease is truly sickening. I apologize.
29. The USSR never had horrible radiation accidents, unlike the USA who nuked children and watering holes to maximize the damage. Apologies.
30. The Massacre of Nanking never would have happened if Japan was spreading it's socialist doctrine to it's capitalist neighbors in China! Apologies.
31. Well, I already apologized for fascism and Nanking and...oh well, SORRY!
32. Belsen was bad. Sorry.
33. Dresden was definitely disproportionate to what the rest of WW2 dictated! I know the Soviets never enacted wholesale destruction nor any other Socialist country! Apologies, deeply.
34. Only a capitalist society is capable of rasism and there was no rasism to be found in a socialist country. Only a rasist can not see this. Apologies.
35. The only good Italian is a cooking Italian! Sorry, that's just my capitalist rasism talking. Sorry for the mob!
36. The USSR definitely never would have sought a nuclear program unless the capitalistas had done it first. Advanced capitalist science of course can only be applied to weaponry and death! Apologies!
37. But the North invaded....uhh, I mean, sorry!
38. Even the bugs in socialist countries find themselves swept up in revolutionary fervor! In capitalist society, they must be killed out of existence, just as every other capitalist enemy! Apologies.
39. McCarthy was an enemy of the people. Apologies.
40. Whoopsies!
41. The Socialists never constructed blacklists of state enemies, yet the capitalists list were so thorough they even had blacklists of who could work in a factory! Apologies.
42. Apologies for that.
43. Shame! We sincerely are sorry.
44. No one is poor in a socialist society! Apologies.
45. I already apologized for militarism, WW1, AND WW2 but I suppose I can find it in my cold, dark, capitalist heart to apologize for the arms race too. The Soviets merely borrowed the weapons their own people selflessly built out of the kindness of their hearts for the state. Apologies.
46. If the state grants you a face, you should be happy with it! Apologies for plastic surgery.
47. The electrical chair was a purely capitalist convention, to exploit the criminal so he would....work for his...execution? Apologies.
48. The industrialization of the capitalist world has ruined our world! Good thing the socialist nations have never embarked on hazardous crash industrialization with little regard for the environment! Phew! Apologies.
49. Sorry!
50. The Greeks to this day despise capitalists, they are just waiting for the moment to burst into revolution. Apologies.
51. We
52. are
53. so
54. very
55. really
56. sorry
57. about
58. that.
59. Saddam Hussein was a true socialist, destroying the bourgeois oppression in Kuwait! Apologies.
60. Us capitalists can't get enough human body parts. Especially through illegal back channels. They uh...get 100 miles to the gallon. Apologies.
61. There has never been malnutrition in a socialist-aspirant country! Apologies.
62. Environmental disasters, as covered before, are exclusive to capitalist countries. Apologies.
63. Every tree is sacred in socialist societies! Also, capitalism never values forestation as an alternative to deforestation even though it guarantees future business for loggers. Apologies.
64. Well, I already apologized for the mafia but I suppose I can apologize for all organized crime that has ever existed as well.
65. Capitalist sucktitude has led our people to sniff rocks! Truly saddening. We apologize.
66. Tuberculosis gives revenue to the hospital bourgeois, this is why capitalists invented and spread it. Apologies.
67. Well, I already apologized for environmental degradation but I don't see why I can't throw the ozone layer in there too! Apologies.
68. Cancer is a capitalist invention, through the carcinogens of industry that, we have established, socialist societies have never valued. Apologies.
69. Sincerest apologies for all that mess!

Okay, your turn!

Dear laddie, thanks for at least trolling with a touch of style, I had seriously given up any hope concerning that.
However, while I appreciate your effort and good will, I somehow doubt that you are a real capitalist or a member of the ruling class.
Which unfortunately makes your good work rather irrelevant, and keeping me from wasting any comments on your verbose output. Sorry for that.
Also, the poster clearly states consider apologising. Nothing more than that. Sorry for that too.
No cookie, I am afraid. Come back when you have learnt to read properly. That goes for Ops as well as posters.
Very sorry even for that.

 

[Crezth]

disregard. tenchar.

 

[Crezth]

I enjoy how anyone who questions socialist doctrines is trolling or "can't possibly be serious" because communism is so PERFECT and erstwhile IRONCLAD that to go against it couldn't be for any other reason than to troll.

A more perceptive individual than myself may say that communism is bad because it purposefully and systematically executed hundreds of millions in states that wrapped freedom in a strangulating tourniquet, and capitalism is justifiable because it advanced all of civilization. Capitalism even resulted in this great thing I hear is called the internet that allows people to post in public forums and express their opinions, such as why they hate the thing that gave them the internet and love a murderous and fundamentally anti-liberal theory.

Now, I'm not the sort of person to go into why communism is a bankrupt ideology, but so far all you have done is stepped ever so gingerly around the issue I (and I should hope many other people) have posed to you. Communism killed hundreds of millions, and yet has nothing to show for it. Capitalism was indirectly the cause of half as many deaths and hardships. What's more, is capitalists shouldn't have to apologize for the acts of people and groups who weren't even necessarily capitalistic in order for socialists to explain just why there were millions rotting in the gulags. I don't understand why you won't just answer my question.

Oh, and by the way, referring to aforementioned hundreds of millions of deaths as "'errors' of socialism" is completely without tact. Genocide is no mere error.

 

[holy king]

this is the "ask a red" thread. if you want to discuss something rather than ask questions and get answers, start a new thread.

 

[Newbunkle]

Azale, I think the point of including things like cancer on the image big-L posted is to show how annoying it is when people attribute things to you that you had no hand in.

 

[plarq]

Azale, I think the point of including things like cancer on the image big-L posted is to show how annoying it is when people attribute things to you that you had no hand in.

Capitalist greed-->over exploitation of nature-->pollution-->cancer

See? Well, only part of cancer is caused by pollution.

 

[potatokiosk]

I enjoy how anyone who questions socialist doctrines is trolling or "can't possibly be serious" because communism is so PERFECT and erstwhile IRONCLAD that to go against it couldn't be for any other reason than to troll.

A more perceptive individual than myself may say that communism is bad because it purposefully and systematically executed hundreds of millions in states that wrapped freedom in a strangulating tourniquet, and capitalism is justifiable because it advanced all of civilization. Capitalism even resulted in this great thing I hear is called the internet that allows people to post in public forums and express their opinions, such as why they hate the thing that gave them the internet and love a murderous and fundamentally anti-liberal theory.

Now, I'm not the sort of person to go into why communism is a bankrupt ideology, but so far all you have done is stepped ever so gingerly around the issue I (and I should hope many other people) have posed to you. Communism killed hundreds of millions, and yet has nothing to show for it. Capitalism was indirectly the cause of half as many deaths and hardships. What's more, is capitalists shouldn't have to apologize for the acts of people and groups who weren't even necessarily capitalistic in order for socialists to explain just why there were millions rotting in the gulags. I don't understand why you won't just answer my question.

Oh, and by the way, referring to aforementioned hundreds of millions of deaths as "'errors' of socialism" is completely without tact. Genocide is no mere error.

You obviously don't understand the purpose of this thread. It's "Ask a red" not "Debate a red". The purpose is to ask this guy questions about what he believes, not try to convince him otherwise. If you want to debate the merits of socialism I suggest - gasp - making your own thread where you can set the topic. Showing complete disregard for the intentions of the thread starter may or may not be trolling but it is obnoxious.

Everyone seems to want to take a shot at commies so I think it's understandable that they would want a thread where they can explain their beliefs and clear up misconceptions without people constantly trying to argue with them.

 

[Newbunkle]

Capitalist greed-->over exploitation of nature-->pollution-->cancer

See? Well, only part of cancer is caused by pollution.

I thought Marx said that the revolution would have to occur in industrialized countries. All industrialized countries cause pollution, regardless of who controls them. But this is O/T for this thread, so... *blows raspberry*

 

[potatokiosk]

Capitalist greed -> Tobacco companies encouraging tobacco use -> lung cancer
Capitalist greed -> Bad working conditions to cut costs -> asbestos -> lung cancer

 

[Munch]

Azale, I think the point of including things like cancer on the image big-L posted is to show how annoying it is when people attribute things to you that you had no hand in.

I think this hit the nail on the head. The events in the picture aren't all "caused by" capitalism but could be said to have occured under capitalism. To claim that capitalism caused them all is ignorant and I think that's the point of the image: it is parodying the ignorance of claiming that atrocities under any economic system should be 'explained away' as if they are necessary tenets of that system. Just like saying that historic scientific advancements (or slightly closer to home, centuries of very slow development) in religious states were in some way inspired by the religious state.

Of course that is only my interpretation and anyway, as others have correctly stated, this isn't a debate thread.

My question is as follows: to what extent if any do you believe that a factory/business etc could be run by a workers' council in a present-day capitalist society? That is to ask, could a successful company convert tomorrow to having, say, its "manager" a directly elected and recallable worker or group of workers (or the entirety of the workers) and still survive?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Azale, I think the point of including things like cancer on the image big-L posted is to show how annoying it is when people attribute things to you that you had no hand in.

No, the point was that pharmaceutical companies lobby against research because it could hurt their profit margins. That the government has allowed corporations to grow beyond their control, and even more so to allow them to influence it, is a symptom of capitalism and capitalism alone.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

I enjoy how anyone who questions socialist doctrines is trolling or "can't possibly be serious" because communism is so PERFECT and erstwhile IRONCLAD that to go against it couldn't be for any other reason than to troll.

A more perceptive individual than myself may say that communism is bad because it purposefully and systematically executed hundreds of millions in states that wrapped freedom in a strangulating tourniquet, and capitalism is justifiable because it advanced all of civilization. Capitalism even resulted in this great thing I hear is called the internet that allows people to post in public forums and express their opinions, such as why they hate the thing that gave them the internet and love a murderous and fundamentally anti-liberal theory.

Now, I'm not the sort of person to go into why communism is a bankrupt ideology, but so far all you have done is stepped ever so gingerly around the issue I (and I should hope many other people) have posed to you. Communism killed hundreds of millions, and yet has nothing to show for it. Capitalism was indirectly the cause of half as many deaths and hardships. What's more, is capitalists shouldn't have to apologize for the acts of people and groups who weren't even necessarily capitalistic in order for socialists to explain just why there were millions rotting in the gulags. I don't understand why you won't just answer my question.

Oh, and by the way, referring to aforementioned hundreds of millions of deaths as "'errors' of socialism" is completely without tact. Genocide is no mere error.

Communism, did not kill millions, Stalin and Mao did. And Luce or Cheezy to do not espouse these views.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

This is not an argument thread. Stop arguing. Start a new thread if you want to argue.

 

[LightFang]

Why do you guys think speculation is "evil"? Or, to put it in a more neutral tone, why do you guys think speculation should be banned?

 

[Mark Young]

What is true communism?

True communism is a political ideology that strive for a society without a state and classes, thereby also without private property.
A communist society is one as described above.

With the above posts in mind, do you view the current trend of non-Communistic Governments recent attempts to garner greater control over banks and financial institutions, as well as Governmental policies designed to curb monetary excesses in an attempt to stall the current financial credit crisis, as well as a means to ensure it doesn't repeat itself, as a step away from traditional capitalistic tendencies and towards a more Governmentally controlled one?
Which whilst is a long way away from Communism, it's interesting to note that no-one is really disagreeing with the Government needing to take greater control over financial institutions; rather, people are wanting the Government to control of things to a greater degree. This, I think is food for thought about where the Government will be in another 20-30 years time.