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Ask not for whom the trolls troll - they troll for thee

Discussion in 'Site Feedback' started by JollyRoger, Nov 3, 2018.

  1. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Entangled Retired Moderator Supporter

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    :) Of course your opinion is important unless you also avoid any participation in staff discussions. then you have just siloed yourself. I think that moderators are capable of expressing their own opinions about things in public even if they are not the same as official statements from Admins or Supermods. Such statement have certainly been made in the past. Presenting a fully unified front from the staff that pretends unanimity of opinions is silly. It is much better to recognize that the staff has a diverse set of opinions and that they have reached an agreement on how how an issue is to be codified into the guidelines. if there are discussions going on over time, it is likely that differing views are being expressed. why not acknowledge that, mention some of the discussion points and then pronounce an agreement.

    "Hey guys, we're talking about this and and trying to balance what we think are the key issues; A, B, and C. we'll keep you updated as we make progress. blah blah blah..."
     
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  2. metatron

    metatron deplorable ally

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    In my view a frequent confusion is mixing up civility with inoffensiveness.
    These are two very different things.
    I greatly appreciate the humility of you saying this. :)

    It is quite common for mods, super mods and admins who are not regular readers of OT to render apparently hasty and careless judgements about it.
     
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  3. Silurian

    Silurian Warlord

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    You should look at my post from the opposite direction
     
  4. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    ho, don't worry for me, I participate when we're discussing about the organization of the forum in relation to the latest Civilization iteration or about modding.

    I could give my opinion as anyone using internet since some time and dealing with trolls in general discussions on other sites, it's just that I don't think it's the one the participants in the topic want to hear, because it's just another member opinion, me being a mod don't give it more weight in this specific case, as I don't moderate in OT. What you really want is a spokesperson from the staff.

    But before, for me there is a difference between presenting a collective answer and presenting an unified front. First case means we're discussing the subject (which in itself acknowledge different opinions), the second case would mean we're facing an enemy. I know some people can't prevent themselves to see any representation of authority (even a small one) as their sworn enemy, even when they were (and still are) members of the same community (that have accepted a post as a moderator in the community without reading the fine prints first, note that I've never opened a PM after too many drinks again...), but I assure you (well, not you in particular, you already know that) that staff discussions are not about war plans. No, really, they're not ! (*remove troops from OT borders*)

    Now, if you allow me to continue to role play your average (but unofficial) spokesperson, this kind of internal discussions (in the staff break room, at the table near the water cooler, because the Star Chamber is currently under repair) usually goes in three steps:
    1. The surviving OT moderators convince the rest of the staff that no, perma-banning every member that has posted more than five messages in OT is not a good idea.
    2. The staff reject some proposals, in the current discussion we've realized that naming Tim a moderator was a fitting punishment but we were reminded of the Geneva Conventions that forbid such barbaric treatment of an unwilling individual (I've discretely send a letter in Switzerland to ask if there was something in the texts about a willing but drunk individual)
    3. Finally deciding what to do, if needed
    It seems we're at step 3/ now, trying to see if/when/where some tolerance/limits of the current rules should be changed. Or not.

    In short no decisions has been made, we'll keep you updated as we make progress.

    Spoiler :
    In case some of you receive PM in the next weeks/months, I may have exaggerated a few points about being a mod.

    And there is a fridge always filled with beers near the Water Cooler.
     
  5. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Entangled Retired Moderator Supporter

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    A perfect response. I couldn't have crafted it any better myself. :)
     
  6. Lemon Merchant

    Lemon Merchant Thread Killer Moderator

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    As for my participation in this thread, I am reading it and nothing more. As far as I am concerned, anything that has to be said by staff in Site Feedback can be said by an Admin or SuperMod.

    [/posting in this thread]
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
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  7. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    My reason for not posting was mostly summarised by Gedemon in #80, but I agree with Lemon's post. As an OT moderator, I don't think it is appropriate for me to appear in Site Feedback, expressing something that might be viewed as site policy, especially as it is the place of moderators to enforce the rules, rather than to make them.
     
  8. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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    You two are the OT mods. The thread was rather expressly directed towards you two for input. If you don’t know or don’t want to say, then say as much, but pretending that the moderation policy of OT is outside of your purview as an OT moderator strikes me as rather absurd.
     
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  9. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    I was not attempting to pretend as such, but my personal views have no place in a public recounting of site policy.
     
  10. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    I disagree. Gedemon made clear that he doesn't want to get involved in OT. You are, not just as a moderator but as part of it. There have been other very clear indications that the "run of the mill" moderators, or even super moderators, want no part of it and haven't the first clue about how it works, the rules that apply uniquely, or frankly anything about moderating. I'm sure that breaking up a couple posters in a game forum debating the virtue of building a spearman over an axeman is about all their capacities can be stretched to encompass.

    But you and Lemon...you're caught square up in this mess. I apologize for that, but someone had to be the moderators of record at the moment when the problem came to a head. So I'm not going to cite what the two of you have to say as "new site policy." But as far as staff people go, to be honest the two of you and Boots have the only opinions I much give a rip about. If your voices aren't the ones that are being listened to there in the totally opaque star chamber that this is being handled in I think we should all know it.
     
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  11. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    Please do not mistake a reluctance on the part of moderators to engage in argument about a topic in Site Feedback for reluctance to have input into policy. Clearly, Arakhor was not saying that he had no personal views, but that he does not consider it appropriate to present those personal views as site policy in this thread, whilst internal discussion is still ongoing. Arakhor is perhaps being too modest about the extent to which his personal opinions are relevant to our internal discussions, but he is quite right that Site Feedback tends to work best when staff aren't giving mixed messages about what site policy is. That is often why, when policy is under a cloud of uncertainty due to an ongoing and active internal discussion, moderators tend to refrain from commenting publicly. (The flip side is that the more confident moderators are to talk about a policy in Site Feedback, the more likely it is that the policy has already been clearly set).

    If you think the staff engagement in this thread has been too low, that's my fault. Earlier in the thread there were posts responding to what I said, and I have not yet had the time to respond to those.
     
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  12. Silurian

    Silurian Warlord

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    I think about 20 to 25% of activity on CFC is on OT.
    The posters on OT tend to be older than the average CFC poster.
    Older posters are more valuable to advertisers because they have more money to spend.
    Logically the Staff should be interested in the well being of OT because it helps to support the cost of the website.
     
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  13. HoloDoc

    HoloDoc Chieftain

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    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 16, 2018
  14. ryanmusante

    ryanmusante Regular Supporter

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    So, the idea behind my avatar is an inquistive and benevolent penguin. He is representative of the faction of Linux users that are welcoming and open to inviting new people. He doesn't condescend or judge people because they make mistakes. He guides and teaches and encourages people to embrace open source software and to enjoy using computers. Manjaro is my distribution of choice.
     

    Attached Files:

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  15. Valka D'Ur

    Valka D'Ur Hosting Iron Pen in A&E Retired Moderator

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    This brings to mind the question of just how many active OT mods are there now? It's obvious that not all who are listed are still active. If any have decided that their hiatus is permanent, it would be appreciated if the staff list could be amended accordingly.
     
  16. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    So far as I can tell, they are the only 2 active OT mods.
     
  17. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    The OT staff-list has been adjusted.
     
  18. JollyRoger

    JollyRoger Slippin' Jimmy Supporter

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    I promise that in staff discussion, both my OT and non OT sockpuppets actively participate.
     
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  19. Valka D'Ur

    Valka D'Ur Hosting Iron Pen in A&E Retired Moderator

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    Thank you.
     
  20. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Well, this seems to have fallen into the "hope we never see that again" crack.
     
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