Assorted balance issues/questions (SVN9199)

[TrippedOnACloud]

The imbalance I'm concerned about isn't so much AI vs Player, as the sheer magnitude of the research boost at such an early stage of the game. I haven't tried starting a new test game yet, but in my current game, with only two Master Hunters actually hunting, I was able to more than triple my three-city empire's research output through hunting, without even particularly trying. I strongly suspect that a start site with caves combined with an actual focus on hunting can achieve something like 10x "normal" research speed until well into the Ancient Era. It's not "Do I do A to get 10% more research, or B to get 10% more production", it's "If I have caves and do this, I will get 1000% more research".

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

Ok, so my previous game was, as usual, abandoned due to a combination of long turn times and runaway lead. I started up a few games to see just how much of a problem research hunting is.

Turns out, I may have overreacted a bit, but it's still extremely strong and, I believe, overpowered. At best, I was able to manage around 3-4x base research per turn on average from subdued animals, up to perhaps mid-Ancient. Overall average was perhaps about 2x base research per turn. In every case, I was able to beat all AIs to Sedentary Lifestyle, at between 3-400 turns on Snail, with a significant overall tech lead, but not necessarily being the first to discover every tech.

Main factors affecting yield were number of AI sharing the same continent, continent size, how aggressively I killed off AI hunters, and whether or not I got access to one of the Hunter-line culture units (15 + 5 + Masters, rather than just 5 + Masters).

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Ok, so my previous game was, as usual, abandoned due to a combination of long turn times and runaway lead. I started up a few games to see just how much of a problem research hunting is.

Turns out, I may have overreacted a bit, but it's still extremely strong and, I believe, overpowered. At best, I was able to manage around 3-4x base research per turn on average from subdued animals, up to perhaps mid-Ancient. Overall average was perhaps about 2x base research per turn. In every case, I was able to beat all AIs to Sedentary Lifestyle, at between 3-400 turns on Snail, with a significant overall tech lead, but not necessarily being the first to discover every tech.

Main factors affecting yield were number of AI sharing the same continent, continent size, how aggressively I killed off AI hunters, and whether or not I got access to one of the Hunter-line culture units (15 + 5 + Masters, rather than just 5 + Masters).

Ah good. It is working as intended then.

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

Is it, though? I get that hunting is meant to be a fairly major source of food, production, and research in the prehistoric. That's fine. The thing is, so much of that is due entirely to Cave Paintings alone, which in turn are dependent on having caves nearby.

With caves, I was easily capable of getting a new tech every 1-2 turns at Snail. Without caves, the rate was around 4-5 turns per tech. That situation basically means that if there are caves in the starting location, you're guaranteed a tech lead, almost irrespective of any other conditions or choices. In one of the test games, I specifically relocated my starting settler into the middle of an icy wasteland with no resources, but with caves, and I still managed to beat every Immortal AI to Sedentary Lifestyle.

I really doubt it's intended that the presence or absence of a single feature in your starting location should completely decide the course and results of the tech race for an entire era.

 

[tmv]

It's right in the name of the mod The true problem is probably that caves are a bit rare.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Is it, though? I get that hunting is meant to be a fairly major source of food, production, and research in the prehistoric. That's fine. The thing is, so much of that is due entirely to Cave Paintings alone, which in turn are dependent on having caves nearby.

With caves, I was easily capable of getting a new tech every 1-2 turns at Snail. Without caves, the rate was around 4-5 turns per tech. That situation basically means that if there are caves in the starting location, you're guaranteed a tech lead, almost irrespective of any other conditions or choices. In one of the test games, I specifically relocated my starting settler into the middle of an icy wasteland with no resources, but with caves, and I still managed to beat every Immortal AI to Sedentary Lifestyle.

I really doubt it's intended that the presence or absence of a single feature in your starting location should completely decide the course and results of the tech race for an entire era.

It does not happen in every game. Has it happened in everyone of yours?

JosEPh

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

I started around a dozen games, all on Immortal, with random leaders/civs. In every case but one, I regenerated the map until my starting location had caves. That one case was where I used WB to move my starting band to a tundra location with zero prehistoric era resources in the BFC. All cases were played to Sedentary Lifestyle, Large/Snail/Immortal. Tech Diffusion was off, Barbarian Generals was on, Teleport Hunting Awards was on, Peace Among NPCs was on.

In every case, regardless of how far behind I was in tech when I reached Petroglyphs, I was able to catch up to and overtake all AIs before reaching Sedentary Lifestyle.

I will note that the Options do affect the results a fair bit. Without Barbarian Generals, presumably you wouldn't get any Great Hunters, which slows down animal subduing a lot. Without Teleport Hunting Awards, you're more limited by the time and upkeep needed to bring your animals back to your city, though in previous games without Teleport Hunting Awards, I never had any real trouble acquiring a massive menagerie. Without Peace Among NPCs, predators tend to drive out prey, making hunting somewhat more dangerous, though not enough to make a big difference.

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

Interesting finding with regards to criminal spawning. They can receive the applicable free promotions from buildings/wonders in the city, and under at least some circumstances they also get the city's full defensive bonus.

This has lead to a Scoundrel (12 strength) spawning in my capital that's got a massive bonus against, well, everything, and a +1200% defensive bonus from the city itself. First I tried Arresting him with Guards (12 strength Law Enforcement), to absolutely no effect. Then I tried throwing some obsolete conventional units at it (7-8 strength, mostly) without checking the odds, only to lose the army that had conquered most of a continent to this one criminal without so much as scratching him. Then, I actually looked at the odds, to see that +1200% from city defense. On the plus side, my generals (Great Commanders is on) gained quite a bit of experience.

I'm now in the process of training a new, modern (Renaissance) army just to try to hunt down this one criminal, who has singlehandedly prevented all movement into my capital for years. I've lost more troops to this one Scoundrel than I have in the entire remainder of the game.

 

[tmv]

How do you get 1200% city defense?

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

Wonders, lots of wonders. It's a game that's been effectively won since the early Ancient era, and said capital is the holy city of every religion except Shamanism.

Gunpowder allowed me to take out the Scoundrel easily enough once discovered and put to use. I believe Arsonists could also have done the job earlier, since they also ignore building defenses, but I didn't think of them until afterwards.

Anyway, my point is that crimiinals probably shouldn't gain the benefits of defensive buildings and wonders in their city. Is it possible to attach a "doesn't receive defensive bonuses" or similar effect to the Wanted promotion that allows arrest?

 

[tmv]

I think it would be better if the city defenses wouldn't work against the owner of the city, or if they didn't work for same-tile-attacks.

 

[Thunderbrd]

You shouldn't be able to attack him in the city without using an arrest or assassination to do so. That's a problem. Are you on the latest SVN or something a little earlier? I've had to tinker with this stuff quite a bit to get it right and I'm not sure it is quite right still. As an extension of that 'rule', he also shouldn't be stopping units from entering the city.

That criminals are getting city defense modifiers is also agreeably not optimal and I see I'll need to fix that.

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

I'm on SVN9271, yes.

Note that he's only stopping units from entering the city, and attackable, once he becomes Wanted. Also, I'm playing without any of the Combat Mod options (No Hide and Seek, for example), not sure if that makes a difference.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ah... I know what the problem is then. It's not a rule issue but an issue with a choice I made about the wanted promo. I was wondering how it would play out and that wasn't quite what I had in mind but yeah, it's how it would work (and should be changed.)