Assuming HC is the best leader in the game, who is #2, and why?

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SPI gets undervalued often, great and fun trait.
When AIs ask you to switch..or else! ;) you can do so without much lost (usually).
If you would quickly like more specialists for another GP, but also need slavery..with SPI you can do so for just 5 turns, prepare cities for whips elsewhere meantime.
+ the saved turns from switches you would do in all games.

Comparing traits will never stop i guess, and never made much sense cos players and settings are different. But you can argue against ORG i.e. on some common settings (and Drew already showed why), but i will just say that i cannot think of settings that make SPI bad, below average etc.
 
...but i will just say that i cannot think of settings that make SPI bad, below average etc.

That's one of the great things about SPI. It's so flexible. You can use it no matter the situation. In that sense, it's superior even to Financial, if you get a poor capital with few rivers around.

Naturally we try to change civics during Golden Ages, but sometimes that isn't feasible. If the game is fairly advanced, just one turn of anarchy means a crapton of lost :hammers: and :science:

I feel Philosophical is a bit like Spiritual, in the sense that both are very flexible. Industrious too really. Usually Financial is universally good too, but like mentioned there are times when it doesn't exactly shine. In my mind, this is why these four traits are usually considered the best. They're quite independent, and can be used in just about all situations, and they all give considerable advantages, also from the start.

SPI: change to WB without a lost turn (which could be essential if you're racing for a settling spot)
FIN: boost in :commerce: right away, from the first riverside cottage (or sea tile, etc)
PHI: Get out a quick GS for an early Academy, or an early bulb to get much more :science: back via trades
IND: Easier to win Oracle, or more bang for your buck hammers with failbuilding.
 
Expansive can also save turns immediately, if you get your first worker in 12 or sometimes even 10 turns compared with 15 ;)
It's getting much weaker over time, but i would rate Exp besides Ind as best early game trait (for me and how i play). I'm split when i think about Cre, cheaper libraries are great esp. for some rushes. And earlier border pops can help too of course, but that trait really stalls after you have those first cities set (and later libraries..2 or 3 pop, meh no big difference)
 
I love the Spiritual Trait in Vanilla and Warlords, particularly on a high-Food, low-production map, where I like the freedom to run Slavery for a while with massive whipping, then the ability to switch temporarily to Caste System while Unhappiness wears off.

In BtS, it's still a good Trait, but Golden Ages' Civic switches being Anarchy free + the Mausoleum of Maussollos extending the life of Golden Ages + the Cristo Redentor being stronger than the Spiritual Trait make me not as excited about the Spiritual Trait in BtS (although it's still very useful for a Cultural game, with cheap Temples).

If I'm playing a deep-teching game, I don't mind bringing a Spiritual AI along with me on the tech-trading ride (it's usually not a big deal to give away the Radio tech), getting said AI to build the Cristo Redentor World Wonder, which has Double Production Speed for Spiritual Leaders on it, and then going to war to capture said Wonder.
 
We all have different playstyles but some things are getting thrown around in this post lately that are just plain wrong (you know who you ARE! lol). I'm a very successful Deity player (when I choose to play it) I'm telling you straight up ORG will always net you, at a minimum, 1 early additional city. That's huge in terms of research and production potential. And on Deity, quite often I would prefer to have ORG over FIN (starts with no rivers and or low commerce tiles).

Once people learn to grasp proper tile management, tile improvements, and how to properly settle their cities they'll instantly begin to appreciate ORG much more. I find most people drastically waste their land and settle cities way to far apart. A single FP and riverside farm becomes a whipping monster. It's so very easy to spam seemingly useless cities together that have the potential to create absurd amounts Treb/Sword/Cross/etc.

I'm guaranteeing anyone playing the higher levels that by around 500AD ORG can easily let you found 4-5 more cities (Granary is all you HAVE to have) bringing your potential whipped unit count impressively higher.

Piggy back what Fippy said. EXP is a fine early game trait. Actually, its pretty spectacular when combined with ORG ^^. You can set up some super crappy latish cities, all spammed and placed at the same time and with that super quick granary be whipping units even quicker.

I would 100% rate EXP above SPI for the reasons you noted, and which is why I don't have the love for SPI as some others around here. There are so many traits that help you immediately which I prefer. There's too many games to count I only go into Anarchy 2 times (rest GAs). So SPI just saved me 2 turns?? EXP and a single worker saves you more than that.

So for my taste, Deity/Immortal I will always choose the 4 top tier traits:

IND, FIN, ORG, PHI.......followed by CRE, EXP, CHAR, SPI......and then the rest :D
 
I love spiritual, largely for the enjoyment factor. I find the flexibility just makes for fun games.
 
I love spiritual, largely for the enjoyment factor. I find the flexibility just makes for fun games.

With the MIDS and leaders like India and Egypt it's one of the strongest available!! And I'm an IND lover so with stone around SPI is beastly.............. But for everyday use I'm seldom switching out of civics and other traits save you quite a bit more.
 
I agree i just think it's a fun trait. You can settle some early cities, switch into CS and get 3T border pops with an artist, then switch back to Slavery. You can do things with religious civics that you wouldn't normally do. You can sometimes switch religions to start wars (or avoid them obviously) or make trades.

Then of course there are the turns of anarchy saved from regular civic switches that don't typically coincide with golden ages like slavery, HR + OR, and sometimes later civics like Communism and what not, particularly when these cause 2T of anarchy. Obviously it's better to plan ahead and try to get a golden age for any later civic switches, but I've certainly had instances where it didn't work out and i either had to just stay in my current civics or eat the anarchy turns.

Anyway, not a top tier trait, but one that i enjoy a good bit.
 
We all have different playstyles but some things are getting thrown around in this post lately that are just plain wrong (you know who you ARE! lol). I'm a very successful Deity player (when I choose to play it) I'm telling you straight up ORG will always net you, at a minimum, 1 early additional city. That's huge in terms of research and production potential. And on Deity, quite often I would prefer to have ORG over FIN (starts with no rivers and or low commerce tiles).

Once people learn to grasp proper tile management, tile improvements, and how to properly settle their cities they'll instantly begin to appreciate ORG much more. I find most people drastically waste their land and settle cities way to far apart. A single FP and riverside farm becomes a whipping monster. It's so very easy to spam seemingly useless cities together that have the potential to create absurd amounts Treb/Sword/Cross/etc.

I'm guaranteeing anyone playing the higher levels that by around 500AD ORG can easily let you found 4-5 more cities (Granary is all you HAVE to have) bringing your potential whipped unit count impressively higher.

Piggy back what Fippy said. EXP is a fine early game trait. Actually, its pretty spectacular when combined with ORG ^^. You can set up some super crappy latish cities, all spammed and placed at the same time and with that super quick granary be whipping units even quicker.

I would 100% rate EXP above SPI for the reasons you noted, and which is why I don't have the love for SPI as some others around here. There are so many traits that help you immediately which I prefer. There's too many games to count I only go into Anarchy 2 times (rest GAs). So SPI just saved me 2 turns?? EXP and a single worker saves you more than that.

So for my taste, Deity/Immortal I will always choose the 4 top tier traits:

IND, FIN, ORG, PHI.......followed by CRE, EXP, CHAR, SPI......and then the rest :D

How does ORG "always net me, at minimum, 1 early additional city"? Are you comparing some gold to an actual settled city? I really don't get that comparison.

I would assume that you looked at for example 4 gold saved in civic upkeep which then you could use for city maintenance. If that's what you meant, it doesn't make sense either to actually make that vague comparison because we're just talking about gold. It would only make sense to me if I were not Org and running 0% research and had 0gpt.. then I could say Org could have "net me another city".

Org saves gold and gold is pretty good.

The same goes for your whole "l2pnubs" argument. Tile management and city placement has nothing to do with Org. Org just saves gold. You could settle the exact same cities without Org, the only difference would be that you have less gold.

Gold is nice but your argument for it doesn't make sense.

My top 3: Cre, Ind, Phi
 
The same goes for your whole "l2pnubs" argument. Tile management and city placement has nothing to do with Org. Org just saves gold. You could settle the exact same cities without Org, the only difference would be that you have less gold.

Quite the opposite actually.

ORG allows you to found more cities due to reduced civic cost. Early and mid game this makes for a powerful combination via keeping cities very small with lots of whipping. Its not uncommon to have less cost with 2 smaller cities than a bigger one....and effectively doubling you're whipping power. Later in the game corps and techs work in conjunction to make even cities working 4-5 tiles (super settling and 3-4 cities taking up the space of what could be 1 larger city) pay off huge dividends.

And obviously you can not settle the same exact amount of cities not being ORG. Most games I play focus on expanding till I'm at zero gpt or even negative gold per turn. Non Org Leaders accumulate more civic fees and therefore will ALWAYS hit the wall first....whilst an ORG leader could continue expanding because they still have a gold surplus.

Imo this is a key reason why some lower level players (Emperor below.....civic cost isn't much) don't value ORG......simply because they don't see any early effects.....or at least not impressive. On Deity (especially)/Immortal that 5th or 6th City could hit your bank in the negative 9 to 15 gold per turn. Having ORG would significantly cut your cost allowing you to in fact.........place extra City/s and in turn give you more flexibility in when (there's a direct correlation to speed of expansion/cost/research)or rather, how soon. No matter what the reduced cost would help you tech a little faster. Either by accumulating more gold for binary research or by saving Xamount gpt helping you stay at a higher slider % (I prefer the former).

I'm surprised there's not more love for ORG. IMO its quite strong. And if you've noticed all of my discussion about ORG so far has been in regards to civic cost. Throw in the buildings and espionage potential and things get nicer. ORG definitely has the potential to be game changing during a variety of periods (ages if you will).

Anyways, I feel like I'm addicted to trying to defend ORG. Lots of rambling here, lol. I'm going to try my best to leave my comments with this last post. I don't think there's anything else I can say to why I like the trait.

I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion!!
 
What goes against Org: other traits have ways to create more gold ;)
Phi makes gold saved look really bad, if you can just get another GMerchant or 2.
Ind no need to explain.
Even with just SPI you can do that, throwing in Caste for a couple turns if no whips needed right now and get some merchant specialists..

So Org is not even best at it's only strength, if we ignore cheaper lighthouses.
Does not mean it's as weak as..hmmm PRO in isolation :D
But you can easily see why some rate Org low.
 
Does not mean it's as weak as..hmmm PRO in isolation

Was quite possible one of the strongest traits when walls/chops/whip > overflow into gold was allowed. Qin with Stone was an uncontrollable beast lol.

I tried......lol. Caste comes quite a bit after initial settling in most cases (Oracle only exception) and by that time I will already have access to building wealth. So that argument is a dead end in my eyes ^^. Same for PHI grabbing those Merchants.........while IND is indeed beastly, especially on higher levels where early fail gold is guaranteed.
 
I'm a very successful Deity player (when I choose to play it) I'm telling you straight up ORG will always net you, at a minimum, 1 early additional city.

Once people learn to grasp proper tile management, tile improvements, and how to properly settle their cities they'll instantly begin to appreciate ORG much more. I find most people drastically waste their land and settle cities way to far apart. A single FP and riverside farm becomes a whipping monster. It's so very easy to spam seemingly useless cities together that have the potential to create absurd amounts Treb/Sword/Cross/etc.

I'm guaranteeing anyone playing the higher levels that by around 500AD ORG can easily let you found 4-5 more cities (Granary is all you HAVE to have) bringing your potential whipped unit count impressively higher.

It's obvious you are playing something like HUGE FRACTAL maps. Most people, especially deity players, play on standard, either fractal / continents or pangaea. Your arguments seem overblown even assuming a weird fractal map, but certainly hold no water on Pangaea.

Point One: It gets you an additional city?? Wut? Initial city settlement on deity pangaea is almost entirely dictated by the AIs settling, the geography, and how quickly you can build settlers. ORG might help you (a very small bit) afford an additional city, but on Pangaea maps you're founding so few cities yourself, this is not the "limitation". If I can found another decent cities, even if it throws me to 20% research or something for a few turns, I would, but ze problem is I cants!

Point Two: "if you were rly good at stuff you'd see how good ORG is".

In fact, it's EXACTLY the opposite for very obvious reasons.
Good players build their cities close together (you admitted).
Good players don't run up their city pops, they whip (you admitted)
Good players run less water tiles / build less stupid infrastructure -- few lighthouses
Result: The bonus effect ORG has on civic maintenance and cheaper CHs / lighthouses is made much smaller, because good players are already playing to minimize those things.

Point Three: "4-5 more cities at 500AD!"

I've had games with 6 cities at 500AD. They might not be going to the HoF any time soon, but are you seriously suggesting I would have been stuck with just my capital without the awesome healing powers of ORG?


No, of course you're not. Though you haven't stated so, it's obvious you're playing on drastically different settings than me (and perhaps most other players here).

Which is exactly the point. ORG quite literally ranges from worst trait in the game to the best trait depending on game settings.

Consider a situation on the border of being winnable and consider it from the last time that the economy is really important (Lib breakout) on Deity Pangaea, and on avg you'll see:
0 Courthouses
0-2 lighthouses
< 10 GPT saved from "civic maintenance"




~~~

As for the rest of the traits. I like CRE and SPI almost equally. Usually I consider Phi/Fin/Ind the lead traits, and CRE/SPI the best support traits, followed by exp/cha.
And I'd actually rather have one lead trait and one of the good support traits then two lead traits, so some of my favorite leader choices reflect that.
I think people are underrating Creative here. Yes libraries are affordable without Cre. But look at it this way. Some of the "building X reduced by trait Y" affect buildings that you are rarely building. Most of my cities get libraries, so that's a lot of saved hammers, and early on in the game. And you get theaters half price and don't have to build monuments, saving you a lot more hammers, and early beakers on myst.

From another perspective, Creative will get you a bunch of extra border tiles that you otherwise wouldn't have, or would have to fight for (expensively). It's hard to put a tangible value on that, since it will vary, but I'd like to think extra tiles are important :cool: and perhaps somewhat underrated in how important they are. You're not just getting a few extra tiles, you're robbing them from an AI. Even tiles you can't work in your cities, creative surely nets you a lot of extra forests you otherwise wouldn't have. Boom there's a lot of hammers. Similarly creative can get you extra luxury resources -- and even if these are some desert incense monstrosities, that's taking a resource from an AI, then selling this resource back to the AI, getting GPT for your economy and giving him a resource that barely helps him, while taking the gold he does need.

As to which is better CRE/SPI that's going to depend on the game (and game speed!). But I'm always happy to see either of them. CRE is like an easy button for borders and SPI is like an easy button for diplomacy.
 
It's obvious you are playing something like HUGE FRACTAL maps. Most people, especially deity players, play on standard, either fractal / continents or pangaea. Your arguments seem overblown even assuming a weird fractal map, but certainly hold no water on Pangaea.

You know,the reason I stopped playing HoF is because my computer is very old and cannot play anything above a standard map. And when playing alone the only map type i use is Pangae (easier on my machine). So tbh, in my opinion, quite a lot of what you say about ORG is a bit off (politely said :)). Getting boxed in on Deity is common on Pangae but you can still spam out more cities working nothing more than 2-3 tiles and whip units with great success. So in my eyes there's still some love to be found.

I'll use Immortal in my example since civic cost are less there and ORG will have a smaller impact on savings, but nonetheless, they are there. 6 cities, 5 of which are surrounding the Capital in uniform proximity in all directions. Capital has 6 pop, 2 cities have 5 pop, 2 cities have 4 pop, and 1 city has 3 pop. Run slavery and you bring in negative 34 gpt. Anyone can replicate something similar in WB.

Now use an ORG leader and set up the cities in the exact same fashion except one thing. Add a 7th city. Under slavery you'll bring in negative 32 gpt. And this is on Immortal. Deity would obviously see > results. So ORG has already allowed us an additional city and a savings in gpt. You get similar results when comparing 8 non-Org cities to 10 ORG cities. Throw in even later dates, more towards 500AD and by keeping your cities small you can most definitely start pushing the 4+ limit.

And since everyone keeps bringing up Deity (I only did because Lurker started it....I dislike the level myself) how many times have you launched what seemed like a successful Lib war of some sort (or Eng) and picked up additional land and capitulated someone and all seems well. You're in good shape but then somehow the damn AIs just happen to reach Rifles or Grenadiers a bit quicker than we thought. Often times this is the beginning of the end.....or in best case scenarios (which are still bad, at least in my story) we make our way to Infantry or Artillery only to fall a few turns short of driving THAT advantage.....and eventually lose out to an out of control AI.

Sometimes that happens......due to a mediocre start, or AIs had too much land, etc, etc. The point of all this? ORG can have a tremendous impact immediately after our 1st big break out by super settling every 3 squares. Sure, ideally I'd rather be whipping more units (not settlers) to take more land asap and continue the steamroll effect. But this isn't always the best solution. Sometimes you're playing from behind and the best way to catch up is to exploit our Human ability to produce units on a MASSIVE scale. If I'm whipping from 30+ cities I don't care if the number 1 AI is 1 or 2 techs ahead of me. It won't make a difference.
 
...
I'll use Immortal in my example since civic cost are less there and ORG will have a smaller impact on savings, but nonetheless, they are there.
...

AFAIK, the difficulty multiplier for civic cost for the human player is the same at Deity, Immortal and Emperor - just the AI gets different multipliers.
 
I just checked Dhar. Immortal and Deity are in fact the same....both at negative 34 while Emperor was at negative 32. So the 6/7 and 8/10 city comparisons are going to be pretty consistent across the board. That's still impressive but I really thought there was a much higher gain as the levels went up.
 
Interesting - if you look up the value of "iCivicUpkeepPercent" in the CIV4HandicapInfo.xml it's 100 for Deity, Immortal and Emperor, where does the difference in Emperor come from? Inflation value is also the same Monarch and above so that can't be the reason either(?)
 
Quite the opposite actually.

ORG allows you to found more cities due to reduced civic cost. Early and mid game this makes for a powerful combination via keeping cities very small with lots of whipping. Its not uncommon to have less cost with 2 smaller cities than a bigger one....and effectively doubling you're whipping power. Later in the game corps and techs work in conjunction to make even cities working 4-5 tiles (super settling and 3-4 cities taking up the space of what could be 1 larger city) pay off huge dividends.

And obviously you can not settle the same exact amount of cities not being ORG. Most games I play focus on expanding till I'm at zero gpt or even negative gold per turn. Non Org Leaders accumulate more civic fees and therefore will ALWAYS hit the wall first....whilst an ORG leader could continue expanding because they still have a gold surplus.

Imo this is a key reason why some lower level players (Emperor below.....civic cost isn't much) don't value ORG......simply because they don't see any early effects.....or at least not impressive. On Deity (especially)/Immortal that 5th or 6th City could hit your bank in the negative 9 to 15 gold per turn. Having ORG would significantly cut your cost allowing you to in fact.........place extra City/s and in turn give you more flexibility in when (there's a direct correlation to speed of expansion/cost/research)or rather, how soon. No matter what the reduced cost would help you tech a little faster. Either by accumulating more gold for binary research or by saving Xamount gpt helping you stay at a higher slider % (I prefer the former).

I'm surprised there's not more love for ORG. IMO its quite strong. And if you've noticed all of my discussion about ORG so far has been in regards to civic cost. Throw in the buildings and espionage potential and things get nicer. ORG definitely has the potential to be game changing during a variety of periods (ages if you will).

Anyways, I feel like I'm addicted to trying to defend ORG. Lots of rambling here, lol. I'm going to try my best to leave my comments with this last post. I don't think there's anything else I can say to why I like the trait.

I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion!!

The reason more people don't love ORG is because it's not nearly as good as you think it is. And the reason it's not nearly as good as you think it is seems to be that you don't understand civic costs.

It does not get better with increased difficulty beyond Emperor. It actually gets less beneficial as the difficulty goes up, where on average the amount of land you can expand into in the first 150 turns goes down. Drastically so on Deity.

Civic maintenance isn't just number of cities. It's also total population. You can have a fair number of cities sitting at low populations and have very low civic costs. And this will be the case for large parts of the game: the initial expansion when your happy cap is low and your frantic whipping for whatever military breakout. Those just happen to be the two most important times in determining whether you get yourself into a winning position or not.

Organized saves you 2gpt on your first city. Because numbers are always rounded down in the calculations it's actually at the very beginning that you see the biggest % savings (actually over 50%).

Organized is saving you 5gpt when you reach 5 cities and 20 total population (4 instead of 9, still over 50%).

When you reach 7 cities and 30 total population it's saving you 10gpt (8 instead of 18, still over 50%).

It's not huge. And it's important to make the distinction between actually getting extra gpt like you do with the financial trait and saving gpt. This does not actually increase your research or income, only commerce does. By the time Organized starts saving you serious dough you are, in most games, already well in control of where things are going. It's true as you point out, especially on challenging Deity games, that every little bit can count even late and things can go either way.

But when you really break it down, Organized is actually worse than Charismatic in the early game, and pretty bad in any game where you maintain a compact empire and more-or-less win with a tech advantage breakout (sound like any Deity games you've played ;) ). It becomes very powerful if you're isolated or semi-isolated and can peacefully expand to your heart's content. On the other hand you also seem to be suggesting that you should leverage this trait by settling a lot of overlapping cities. I think most good players do this regardless, and it's only as good as the amount of food you have for those cities. On Deity you're probably doing this out of necessity. Your argument about "hitting the wall" when expanding really applies to lower difficulty levels, you obviously hit a very different kind of wall on most maps on Immortal or Deity.

I don't really understand what you were saying about people appreciating the trait more if they understood better tile management/city settling etc. Certainly you don't think you're the only competent Deity player in this thread? I see none of us, aside from you, rating Organized so highly. But I'm pretty sure we all manage our tiles and settle intelligently, one way or another. Organized has absolutely nothing to do with tile management or where you settle your cities. That couldn't find a less relevant point to bring up if you tried. It's passive, you get what you get out of it regardless of what you're doing. You might be confusing civic maintenance with city maintenance, judging from how you brought up the distance of cities from the capital.
 
So ORG has already allowed us an additional city and a savings in gpt.

..let me just pick out this one line, cos that's where a big problem with this argument lies. You cannot assume ORG allowed this city ;)
It's just not true, there are too many ways to make gold.
Would be like saying "only Phi allows getting great peoples". This game would be boring, if any trait would have such things exclusive.
Instead, i would look at what i gave up with other traits (since you rated SPI lower than Org i think?), for 10gpt (too lazy for exact numbers..), which can be as easy as selling 1 resource with currency..!
 
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