Assuming HC is the best leader in the game, who is #2, and why?

[drewisfat]

IND also is super important early game. Unlike ORG which does nothing early game. In fact ORG does nothing if you're having a bad game either. It only helps if you're doing well -- recipe for the most overrated trait.

It's quite possible, maybe even common, to have a game be winnable around Liberalism breakout time frame, and be saving < 10 GPT from ORG. In other words, a random desert incense tile can help your game more than the entire ORG trait.

In large maps the trait becomes considerably better, because you have more cities and the game carries on much longer. But on a standard Pangaea it is not only not one of the best traits, it is somewhere in the AGG/PRO level of uselessness.

 

[Kullervo]

I think you're underestimating the power of Organized in terms of the buildings it helps you construct. Especially if you have unique Courthouses or something along those lines (now that I think about it I can't remember if any Org leader has unique Courthouses or Lighthouses off the top of my head, or if those two are even the uniques... my bad.) But even the regular courthouse at half the cost is great. The sped up buildings are something you'll want in most cities, unlike pretty much every other trait.

 

[Izuul]

AFAIK the only leader with a cheap UB from a trait is Shaka and the Ikhanda.

Cheap CHs only make a difference when trying to consolidate a winning position. As drew pointed out above, ORG doesn't start making a difference until AFTER you get yourself into a strong position, it does next to nothing to get you there.

I wouldn't say it's down with AGG/PRO, but i don't consider it to be in the top tier of traits.

 

[MegaLurker]

I'm convinced Iranon is a strong player. Matter of fact, I believe him and I have had similar thoughts in the past in regards to IND and ORG (lots of cities and tile sharing...rivals FIN). However, the two of us have a drastically different view on the value and power of CRE.

I.E., IND and/or ORG have phenomenal mid-late and late game potential.....via Wonder denial and mass city founding (quite literally....like every 3 grid squares). Throw in a slower global tech rate....from Wonder denial and less trading and these traits seems leagues and bounds ahead of........say CRE, EXP, SPI, etc.

Speaking from my point of view, I find CRE extremely flexible and useful because it drastically changes the first 50 - 75 turns of the game which are among the most important. Most games allow you to really drive that early advantage into a much stronger position, a position which most other non CRE leaders would have a hard time doing.....at least in terms of accomplishing comparable results in the same amount of turns.

So to wrap up, I find CRE allows for an explosive start with rapidly diminishing returns. It's not hard to leverage that explosive opening into game changing circumstances much earlier than other potential traits. It might not be IND, FIN, or ORG, but imo it's still quite versatile....and extremely strong when lucky enough to be paired with any of the above.

Organized leaps and bounds ahead of spiritual?

Creative drastically changes the first 70 turns? I mean...it simplifies city placement a bit, and gets you that first library a few turns faster. You're really overrating it if you think it's more useful than spiritual on Deity.

 

[cseanny]

Organized leaps and bounds ahead of spiritual?

My answer is an emphatic YES. The only exception is when stone is present. I do find SPI quite useful when combined with other good traits/uu/ubs, etc. I.E., both Egypt leaders, both Indian leaders, and Mansa for sure. And for the Isabella lovers out there.......I dislike her a lot.

Yep, Deity AIs make lots of demands and SPI will certainly go up in stock but ORG shines on Deity/Immortal. My top tier traits (in no particular order) are IND, FIN, ORG, PHI. After these I prefer CRE, EXP, CHAR, and SPI. And then there's the rest.

Creative drastically changes the first 70 turns? I mean...it simplifies city placement a bit, and gets you that first library a few turns faster. You're really overrating it

As mentioned in my previous posts CRE does so much more than what you've written. It saves early and expedites future via no need for monuments and quicker BFC means working more top tier tiles sooner. Additionally you can skimp (although not always advised) on workers because you don't need to improve as many tiles to gain the benefits provided from quick, easy Libraries.

Direct beakers provided from Libraries do come many turns quicker. Back up a quick second. You also save research time because you no longer need to tech Myst. Even more, leaders starting with Hunting/Mining (most CRE leaders) can always get Food in 1 tech, directly followed by Chopping (2nd tech) which in itself leads to quicker starts. Not to mention you can completely bypass TWL and POT while you beeline to ALPHA........

Which leads me back to direct beakers gained from Libraries built quicker....and it's more than a "few" turns. When your in a game pushing expansion and you've been at zero slider for a while all those saved turns from quicker Libraries can easily get you to Alpha/Aesthetics > Currency (whatever) 10turns quicker (could be more saved turns than that). The higher the level you play the more severe city maintenance becomes (ORG also shines here) so you'll be at zero slider much much sooner making CRE quite attractive. And then there's always the benefit of having CRE when you have the MIDS where those earlier libraries with REP get research up and running scary fast, once again saving invaluable amount of turns in research.

And this is just one aspect......the research aspect. Throw the whole package together and CRE becomes (IMO) just one step below my top 4.

So IMO MegaLurker you are severely (Catastrophically!) underrating the value of both ORG and CRE. But hey, that's why we have these polls and so many leaders to choose from.

 

[Izuul]

I do enjoy CRE, but if you can't exploit it early it can be a bit of a drag for the rest of the game. I like it best when paired with some other strong advantage (good trait or WCs with Hatty). This IU Gilgamesh game that i am playing has been a good example of the downside of CRE. I can basically count on one hand the number of cases where it has actually helped me (2-3 libraries, one stolen food tile for ~30T that i lost back, and a few cheap theaters), and with PRO as the other trait i could have played this game forward from my 500 AD position with no traits at all and hardly noticed a difference.

OTOH Louis XIV is one of my favorite leaders in the game and i love CRE for him. It works well for Willem too.

 

[cseanny]

This IU Gilgamesh game that i am playing has been a good example of the downside of CRE.

Heh^^. I'm playing the same game and CRE helped me power in early tech, grab more tiles (fish in 2nd tier NW of us as an example..there are more) and once I got the MIDS those Libraries shined. 15+ cities by 1AD and should get 20 by 1AD with well over 1000 .

I like Louis too but prefer Degaulle. And Willem is a beast. I play him with Unrestricted leaders a lot and its always easy mode, regardless of level.

 

[Izuul]

Pretty big difference in my game on Deity.

Spoiler :

Got boxed in early and barely got 6 cities. I only got that many by sharing all of the food around the capitol b/t 3 cities. Stone was gone before i could settle a 3rd city, got attacked by Hannibal around 400 BC, etc. It's been a war game throughout with GLH providing almost all of the commerce.

 

[cseanny]

Well I've said this quite a bit in the past Izuul......although I have good success when playing Deity I don't enjoy the level. Less game opening potential and more times than not your forced into a very specific early game path. So yea. Winning isn't the problem but the variety in how you can actually go about playing makes the game less fun.

If I ever get my machine upgraded (or new one) I'm thinking about starting up HoF again. Fun competition with a variety of levels with much more potential to have a rewarding and enriched game experience.

Out of curiosity, I wonder who the best Unrestricted Leader would be.

 

[Izuul]

Peter/Pacal/Bismarck of Inca? Kind of boring answer though since HC is practically just as good.

 

[rfcfanatic]

Darius of Holy Roman Empire would certainly be an interesting combination, but when speaking of restricted leaders, I'd have to give some credit to Napoleon, although all French leaders are very strong.

+1 free and another one from Monument is awesome in early game. Especially when there are no resources available. And then is Organized - all buildings it boosts are very strong. Reduced civic upkeep is even better. Just played a game as Napoleon and never worried about sustaining tens of cities and hundreds of soldiers.

 

[MegaLurker]

My answer is an emphatic YES. The only exception is when stone is present. I do find SPI quite useful when combined with other good traits/uu/ubs, etc. I.E., both Egypt leaders, both Indian leaders, and Mansa for sure. And for the Isabella lovers out there.......I dislike her a lot.

Yep, Deity AIs make lots of demands and SPI will certainly go up in stock but ORG shines on Deity/Immortal. My top tier traits (in no particular order) are IND, FIN, ORG, PHI. After these I prefer CRE, EXP, CHAR, and SPI. And then there's the rest.



As mentioned in my previous posts CRE does so much more than what you've written. It saves early and expedites future via no need for monuments and quicker BFC means working more top tier tiles sooner. Additionally you can skimp (although not always advised) on workers because you don't need to improve as many tiles to gain the benefits provided from quick, easy Libraries.

Direct beakers provided from Libraries do come many turns quicker. Back up a quick second. You also save research time because you no longer need to tech Myst. Even more, leaders starting with Hunting/Mining (most CRE leaders) can always get Food in 1 tech, directly followed by Chopping (2nd tech) which in itself leads to quicker starts. Not to mention you can completely bypass TWL and POT while you beeline to ALPHA........

Which leads me back to direct beakers gained from Libraries built quicker....and it's more than a "few" turns. When your in a game pushing expansion and you've been at zero slider for a while all those saved turns from quicker Libraries can easily get you to Alpha/Aesthetics > Currency (whatever) 10turns quicker (could be more saved turns than that). The higher the level you play the more severe city maintenance becomes (ORG also shines here) so you'll be at zero slider much much sooner making CRE quite attractive. And then there's always the benefit of having CRE when you have the MIDS where those earlier libraries with REP get research up and running scary fast, once again saving invaluable amount of turns in research.

And this is just one aspect......the research aspect. Throw the whole package together and CRE becomes (IMO) just one step below my top 4.

So IMO MegaLurker you are severely (Catastrophically!) underrating the value of both ORG and CRE. But hey, that's why we have these polls and so many leaders to choose from.

Organized is just not nearly as good as the other traits you lump it in with. You get a reduction in civic maintenance, not city maintenance, which for most (every non isolation?) game on Deity does almost nothing through the entire formative period of the game, and starts making a difference when you're already in a winning position (more expensive civics, huge population). Cheaper couthouses is meh. Does nothing for the first 100+ turns, I'd say in 9/10 Deity games you build zero until well after a big breakout. The two bonuses actually work against each other, by the time these costs add up to enough the lower civic maintenance gives you less reason to build couthouses in the first place.

You go on quite a bit about how much faster you get libraries out, how great that is. As if you need a library in every city, and as if the 45 hammers you save isn't just 2 chops or a whip. If you're in a hurry to get a library out, the creative trait might save you 3 or 4 turns. Really not significant. Unless you've built the mids all these beakers you're talking about are mostly imaginary, because running non-rep scientists for the beakers is poor strategy when you're trying to expand both horizontally and vertically. You need to be running your slider and you need to be bringing in commerce. On most maps saving up money to deficit research when a library or two are done will be nowhere close to shaving 10 turns off Currency.

The 5 turn border pop certainly simplifies city selection but from what I've read and my own play it makes little difference to Deity players. More tiles to work means more worker turns to improve them at a point in the game when worker turns are always tight. You settle your city with food in the first ring and you whip, you're not losing out on much. On Deity half the time you can count on early religion spread for free border pops anyway. The occasional city needs a monument and then you have to waste a whopping 30 hammers. The one thing creative really helps for is blocking off land, but that really has nothing to do with the quality of the city sites. I sometimes forget I'm playing as a creative leader, and then when a border pops I think oh, well that was convenient I guess. Slightly different dotmap. Nothing to get excited about.

Don't get me wrong it's not one of the lesser traits, but it's not one of the best ones. And neither is Organized. You may not really understand just how little money that trait saves you.

I think people who don't see just how useful Spiritual is on Deity are underrating it, as you say, catastrophically

 

[cseanny]

@ Lurker

Disagree with everything you wrote.......about Libraries, early maintenance cost and benefits, etc. You and I will agree to disagree because nothing you wrote ever comes to pass in my own game experiences.

Like a completely different game we are playing.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Personally, I like playing as Shaka.

Agriculture is often needed for your first Resource improvement; otherwise, you'll likely want Animal Husbandry for your first Resource improvement.

Starting with Agriculture + Hunting gives you a bonus to research on Animal Husbandry.

Early knowledge of Horses is helpful.

Detour to Mining + Bronze Working, then toss in The Wheel, and you've got all of the techs that you'll need for quite a while.

Ikhandas come cheaply with the Aggressive Trait and can be built right away... just as with Huayna, having an early-game and powerful Unique Building can set your Civ apart from the others. Reducing Maintenance on Deity while giving your 2-movement-point early Impis or Chariots an extra Promo, all for half price, gives you a solid edge up that screams spamming an Ikhanda in every City... not something that is so useful to do with a lot of other Unique Buildings.

Aggressive means that your early Unique Unit starts with the Combat I Promo. Toss in free Mobility and not only can you make extremely sneaky strikes on enemy Cities, but you can also pull off Worker steals that leave the AIs saying "What the... LOL!?!"

Yes, you have to be creative about your Worker steals, as no, the AIs are not completely ignorant of your Impis' Mobility Promotions. However, you can set up a lot of 2-turn Worker stealing operations at a time when a lot of Forests haven't been chopped, so the Workers can get "stuck" on their way to safety on the second turn of approaching them, leaving them easy pickings for your Impis to pick off.


Impis coming with Combat I + 3 XP mean that you can start them off with the Cover (Anti-Archery) Promotion. First Strike away with your puny arrows... they bounce off of the hides of my troops, barely causing any damage, while we run in and tear off your Archers' heads.


Starting with a Scout lets you quickly find your first victim and map out their lands for your eventual Worker-farming. Sure, an early Warrior lets you steal a Worker, but then good luck avoiding all of the free enemy Archers that are roaming around the map in a Deity game. I'd rather have map knowledge so that when I come in with my Impis, I can keep picking off Workers during the war.


Axemen will pwn Impis, right? Well, by that time, you will have settled a Horse City or will have stolen one, and can add Chariots to your attacking stacks. Pillage the key Roads in enemy territory (with a sacrificial unit, if necessary) and slow-moving Axemen are no longer scary, with Chariots to easily take them out as the Axemen slowly blunder around in their own lands.


As if that wasn't good enough, toss on 1 more tech and you're at Pottery, earning you cheap Granaries, arguably one of the strongest Buildings in the game (another reason why Huayna is so strong, since Granaries are replaced with his Unique Building).


Sure, it's nice to have a lot of cheap Buildings with a Leader like Mehmed II, but it usually takes a long time to getting around to building them all. Not so with cheap Granaries and cheap Barracks that act as mini-Courthouses, which both come early and which you'll want to spam in every one of your Cities.


Getting +2 Health per City from the Expansive Trait means that you can aggressively clear-cut your Forests, giving you an even greater edge early on in the game.


+25% bonus to Worker Production can often mean getting an early leg-up at the start of the game... it's not too uncommon to have a PH For square or to be able to settle on a 2-Hammer square while finding a GH For or P For square available to give you a total of 4 base Hammers (counting the 1 free Hammer that you'll always get from your City Centre square), giving you that extremely-useful free +1 bonus Hammer at the start of the game, which can launch your game off to an extra-early start.


If you can effectively mess with the AIs, they won't stand much of a chance. Yes, Civs that are further away can build up, but you'll also have access to a larger empire via conquest which can be supported with reduced Maintenance Costs from the Ikhandas. Pick and choose the Cities that you want to capture (lookie here, a nice City with a Gems Resource!), as you can quickly cut off Strategic Resource access in an empire and capture only the Cities that you like, leaving the AIs alive to develop the remaining junky locations while they stay busy building more Workers for you to steal.

Personally, I love messing with the AIs and so Shaka is one of my favourite Leaders. If you're a Lonely Heart, he's still okay for REXing, as cheap Ikhandas and cheap Granaries are still your friends, but his true power shines when you have neighbours and the map isn't completely barren of Strategic Resources.

 

[MegaLurker]

@ Lurker

Disagree with everything you wrote.......about Libraries, early maintenance cost and benefits, etc. You and I will agree to disagree because nothing you wrote ever comes to pass in my own game experiences.

Like a completely different game we are playing.

There are many ways to skin a cat, of course.

But the negligible amount of money the organized trait saves you over the first 75-100 turns is really not up for debate, regardless of what you think you've seen in-game. And it's no more useful on Deity than it is on Emperor, the modifier for civic upkeep cost is the same.

 

[MegaLurker]

Personally, I like playing as Shaka.

Agriculture is often needed for your first Resource improvement; otherwise, you'll likely want Animal Husbandry for your first Resource improvement.

Starting with Agriculture + Hunting gives you a bonus to research on Animal Husbandry.

Early knowledge of Horses is helpful.

Detour to Mining + Bronze Working, then toss in The Wheel, and you've got all of the techs that you'll need for quite a while.

Ikhandas come cheaply with the Aggressive Trait and can be built right away... just as with Huayna, having an early-game and powerful Unique Building can set your Civ apart from the others. Reducing Maintenance on Deity while giving your 2-movement-point early Impis or Chariots an extra Promo, all for half price, gives you a solid edge up that screams spamming an Ikhanda in every City... not something that is so useful to do with a lot of other Unique Buildings.

Aggressive means that your early Unique Unit starts with the Combat I Promo. Toss in free Mobility and not only can you make extremely sneaky strikes on enemy Cities, but you can also pull off Worker steals that leave the AIs saying "What the... LOL!?!"

Yes, you have to be creative about your Worker steals, as no, the AIs are not completely ignorant of your Impis' Mobility Promotions. However, you can set up a lot of 2-turn Worker stealing operations at a time when a lot of Forests haven't been chopped, so the Workers can get "stuck" on their way to safety on the second turn of approaching them, leaving them easy pickings for your Impis to pick off.


Impis coming with Combat I + 3 XP mean that you can start them off with the Cover (Anti-Archery) Promotion. First Strike away with your puny arrows... they bounce off of the hides of my troops, barely causing any damage, while we run in and tear off your Archers' heads.


Starting with a Scout lets you quickly find your first victim and map out their lands for your eventual Worker-farming. Sure, an early Warrior lets you steal a Worker, but then good luck avoiding all of the free enemy Archers that are roaming around the map in a Deity game. I'd rather have map knowledge so that when I come in with my Impis, I can keep picking off Workers during the war.


Axemen will pwn Impis, right? Well, by that time, you will have settled a Horse City or will have stolen one, and can add Chariots to your attacking stacks. Pillage the key Roads in enemy territory (with a sacrificial unit, if necessary) and slow-moving Axemen are no longer scary, with Chariots to easily take them out as the Axemen slowly blunder around in their own lands.


As if that wasn't good enough, toss on 1 more tech and you're at Pottery, earning you cheap Granaries, arguably one of the strongest Buildings in the game (another reason why Huayna is so strong, since Granaries are replaced with his Unique Building).


Sure, it's nice to have a lot of cheap Buildings with a Leader like Mehmed II, but it usually takes a long time to getting around to building them all. Not so with cheap Granaries and cheap Barracks that act as mini-Courthouses, which both come early and which you'll want to spam in every one of your Cities.


Getting +2 Health per City from the Expansive Trait means that you can aggressively clear-cut your Forests, giving you an even greater edge early on in the game.


+25% bonus to Worker Production can often mean getting an early leg-up at the start of the game... it's not too uncommon to have a PH For square or to be able to settle on a 2-Hammer square while finding a GH For or P For square available to give you a total of 4 base Hammers (counting the 1 free Hammer that you'll always get from your City Centre square), giving you that extremely-useful free +1 bonus Hammer at the start of the game, which can launch your game off to an extra-early start.


If you can effectively mess with the AIs, they won't stand much of a chance. Yes, Civs that are further away can build up, but you'll also have access to a larger empire via conquest which can be supported with reduced Maintenance Costs from the Ikhandas. Pick and choose the Cities that you want to capture (lookie here, a nice City with a Gems Resource!), as you can quickly cut off Strategic Resource access in an empire and capture only the Cities that you like, leaving the AIs alive to develop the remaining junky locations while they stay busy building more Workers for you to steal.

Personally, I love messing with the AIs and so Shaka is one of my favourite Leaders. If you're a Lonely Heart, he's still okay for REXing, as cheap Ikhandas and cheap Granaries are still your friends, but his true power shines when you have neighbours and the map isn't completely barren of Strategic Resources.

Aggressive/Ikhanda/Impi is probably the best trait/unique building/unique unit combo in the game. The AI sucks with Shaka if he doesnt get you early, but he's a pretty strong leader for the human player.

 

[Pangaea]

Why would you want to skin a cat?

Personally I don't think Organized is particularly useful. You get some buildings for cheap, and all those are useful, but the reduced civic cost doesn't really amount to all that much, at least prior to having a big empire.

 

[MegaLurker]

Why would you want to skin a cat?

Personally I don't think Organized is particularly useful. You get some buildings for cheap, and all those are useful, but the reduced civic cost doesn't really amount to all that much, at least prior to having a big empire.

I dunno, cat's get a rough ride. The French version of "I have bigger fish to fry" is actually j'ai d'autres chats a fouetter, "I have other cats to whip."

 

[Thrar]

Why would you want to skin a cat?

Would you eat it with all that fur still on? I too prefer my cats nice and skinned...

 

[Pangaea]

I prefer them as pets instead of food. Just look at those cuddly little cute eyes!