Atheistic Hypothetical Theism.

So if we were able to experience the unity of reality (God, right?) then we would experience.. nothing? An unchanging eternal thing? Nothing moving, etc.?

but then

How can en entity which does not change dream? That's my main question - how could something that doesn't change do anything?

That's why I said not to take the analogy too far. God just is. The dream analogy is only to show the realtionship between what we experience and god's perspective on our reality.

The mystics would say that the experience of god's unity is breath-taking bliss. The Sufi poets are quite adept at writing of their experiences: Rumi & Hafiz in particular are widely translated.


Bed time for me.
 
Pretty much. I think, though, calling it God can be helpful for recognizing that you are not separate from the rest of the universe. You, as an individual, are indeed a tiny speck set out to observe the greater beauty, but the greater beauty is still connected to you. So the Scientific approach is a very good one, probably the best (though I think many of the ancient wisdoms were essentially Scientific in nature, even if corrupted by mob rule), but it does to seem to cause people, at least these days, to view themselves as completely isolated. I tend to think these feelings of isolation may be more attributable, or at least compounded by, an economy driven on insecurity and insufficiency.
I agree, it's a very comfortable way to regard the Universe. But it does little to provide me with a take on theism. Since as far as I can tell, if God is nothing but everything in the Universe, God is nothing. God is a rock, but the rock is the rock as well. God does not add anything to the universe. God might be that rock, but nowhere is God himself.

It sounds to me that it's like reasoning that Bigfoot is real and making the case that calling that one gorilla over there Bigfoot makes Bigfoot real.

I'm afraid I can't see a way how calling everything under a single denominator brings me closer to having a reasoned picture of what God could be. But I still like the concept, so I'm thinking of ways to incorporate this God Alone is idea, but for it to work there, there has to be something which is only God. It has to have a separate consciousness.

I'm no leader of teh forums but if it were my board this is close to spam. Your question has been answered many times. To continue reading this thread is a waste of time. Either this is someone's little scheme and/or you chose to ignore a solution.

You might have decided to accept the problem with eyes wide open.
I'm curious about 2 things. What was my question, and how do you feel it has been answered?

And keep in mind I could very well be rather daft, so what you consider crystal clear might look like Swahili to me. Be assured what I'm doing is not spam, my remarks and questions are genuine. Maybe you should stop by the Rants or Raves thread for your fingerwagging ;)
"God Alone is." can be seen as a statement that god is infinite, permanent, eternal and unchanging which would mean REAL. (all caps). Relative to god, the Universe would be a "real" (to us) physical (and thereby limited) manifestation of that permanent, unchanging Reality. But the Universe is a finite, impermanent and changing reality through which life and non life can experience form and consciousness.

Science teaches us the make up and interactions of the physical universe and experience and consciousness provides the doorway to understanding the underlaying Reality that unites all existence.
Yeah, I understand that until the last bit. The underlying Reality that unites all existence. So far all that has been shown to me is: We call Everything that Exists a name, God or Hank, and we're all united. While it's true we're all made out of the same stuff, just denomination everything does little to provide me a clear theistic picture.

And yes, I do start to feel a little daft since it seems it's all perfectly sensible to people, to the point that they're saying: you still don't get this? Impossible. Surely thou art spamming. Well I hope people will tolerate me drooling all over the carpet while moaning "brain hurtz" for a while.
 
So if we were able to experience the unity of reality (God, right?) then we would experience.. nothing? An unchanging eternal thing? Nothing moving, etc.?

but then



How can en entity which does not change dream? That's my main question - how could something that doesn't change do anything?

And here we see that these are just tricks of language. We have discovered nothing which is measured at Absolute Zero, therefore we can say everything is always changing. But we can also say that this fact never changes. Which, obviously, contradicts itself.

Does a rock change? Depends how closely you look. Perhaps if you were not immersed in the universe as we know it, it would appear not to change at all. I can't speak to that idea from personal experience, but that is my feeling.
 
I agree, it's a very comfortable way to regard the Universe. But it does little to provide me with a take on theism. Since as far as I can tell, if God is nothing but everything in the Universe, God is nothing. God is a rock, but the rock is the rock as well. God does not add anything to the universe. God might be that rock, but nowhere is God himself.

Hmm, I guess that's a particular outlook for Theism. As BirdJaguar points out, it's very Western.

It sounds to me that it's like reasoning that Bigfoot is real and making the case that calling that one gorilla over there Bigfoot makes Bigfoot real.

Not exactly. Bigfoot is a fairly specific conceptual entity. This idea of God is not new at all. If you were willing to accept Hindu Theistic ideas, you would see that I'm perhaps largely conforming to some of the most ancient inceptions of God and not the other way round.

I'm afraid I can't see a way how calling everything under a single denominator brings me closer to having a reasoned picture of what God could be. But I still like the concept, so I'm thinking of ways to incorporate this God Alone is idea, but for it to work there, there has to be something which is only God. It has to have a separate consciousness.

Well, have we not found that such an understanding has a great may implications? Perhaps looking into those would help you with your picture. It's fine if you want to insist on separateness, though don't know that I can help you much with that. For me separateness is an illusion, albeit a persistent (and helpful!) one.

I'm curious about 2 things. What was my question, and how do you feel it has been answered?

"What do you get when you multiply six by nine?" and "42". :D
 
Hmm, I guess that's a particular outlook for Theism. As BirdJaguar points out, it's very Western.
I agree this is probably the reason for all the confusion. Theism as I view it is the believe in a deity. Or more deities. How do you define "Theism"?

I realised a while ago that my Western mindwashing also wants a God with some Character to it. Not a rock :)
 
Heh, it's scary close to what's been happening in this thread:

Pantheism and panentheism
Main articles: pantheism and panentheism

While a specific definition of theism may exclude pantheism, it is included by the most general definition.

Pantheism: The belief that the physical universe is equivalent to a god or gods, and that there is no division between a Creator and the substance of its creation.[12] Examples include many forms of Saivism.
Panentheism: Like Pantheism, the belief that the physical universe is joined to a god or gods. However, it also believes that a god or gods are greater than the material universe. Examples include most forms of Vaishnavism.

Some people find the distinction between these two beliefs as ambiguous and unhelpful, while others see it as a significant point of division.[13]

Have you been editing wiki? :D

The underlined part is what I feel was missing. Since I don't really feel the Pantheism aspect is open to discussion. There is no way to say what indications there are for pantheism, so there's actually very little room for discussion. Be that as it may, it is new to me, and for that alone it is useful :)
 
I agree this is probably the reason for all the confusion. Theism as I view it is the believe in a deity. Or more deities. How do you define "Theism"?

I realised a while ago that my Western mindwashing also wants a God with some Character to it. Not a rock :)

Actually "It" is a mountain size rock, able to crush nations, but small enough to be a stumbling stone to the "wise".

A rock is "hard" no matter what size it is. It is also the foundation of any building. As long as it is a foundation, it has purpose, any other use is "harmful". Is there a basis for life? Some say we are here for a purpose. Some say we are just randomness. Some believe a butterfly on the other side of the world effects us. If we have purpose, then the butterfly has purpose. If not then both the butterfly and we are coincindences of a random pattern without meaning.

Use the rock as a foundation and construct a beautiful architucture. Throwing stones at it may bring it down.:sad: Not trying to be funny, just "adding" to the rock metaphor.
 
I agree this is probably the reason for all the confusion. Theism as I view it is the believe in a deity. Or more deities. How do you define "Theism"?

I realised a while ago that my Western mindwashing also wants a God with some Character to it. Not a rock :)
God alone is does allow for an active agent in the universe. The unity that eternally pervades existence is masked from us by our limited consciousness and finite form, but it is not "not there". If one needs to find a purpose in the universe, it would be to experience the the unity of god. That search for unity is what drives human culture. It is built into our very make up and drives most of what we do. We seek out family and friends and community and when/where they don't exist we create them. Our love of people and things are the work of god reaching out through our confined forms to experience what is hidden. We all seek to lose ourselves in the joy of unity with something else. It doesn't matter whether that "other" is a person, pet, church, sports team, a song, a job, a hobby or what ever. We seek out those feelings, those experiences, because they are so powerful. That is the work of god every day. God is not the "rock". We are the rocks, immovable, rigid, and blind to the opportunities to find god in all.
 
That's why I said not to take the analogy too far. God just is. The dream analogy is only to show the realtionship between what we experience and god's perspective on our reality.

The mystics would say that the experience of god's unity is breath-taking bliss. The Sufi poets are quite adept at writing of their experiences: Rumi & Hafiz in particular are widely translated.


Bed time for me.

You didn't really address my question about how something that doesn't change can do anything. I can't visualize or conceptualize such a thing so I wonder how you put meaning to what you say.
 
You didn't really address my question about how something that doesn't change can do anything. I can't visualize or conceptualize such a thing so I wonder how you put meaning to what you say.

Does change even matter to a hypothetical being that transcends time? Does "change" even mean anything without the context of time?
 
Does change even matter to a hypothetical being that transcends time? Does "change" even mean anything without the context of time?

Good point, but my question remains the same.

edit: apparently not a good point then ;)
 
God alone is does allow for an active agent in the universe. The unity that eternally pervades existence is masked from us by our limited consciousness and finite form, but it is not "not there". If one needs to find a purpose in the universe, it would be to experience the the unity of god. That search for unity is what drives human culture. It is built into our very make up and drives most of what we do. We seek out family and friends and community and when/where they don't exist we create them. Our love of people and things are the work of god reaching out through our confined forms to experience what is hidden. We all seek to lose ourselves in the joy of unity with something else. It doesn't matter whether that "other" is a person, pet, church, sports team, a song, a job, a hobby or what ever. We seek out those feelings, those experiences, because they are so powerful. That is the work of god every day. God is not the "rock". We are the rocks, immovable, rigid, and blind to the opportunities to find god in all.
See, here I run into the problem of not having anything with which I can "test" this. The only counter I can give is: no it isn't. The only support you can give here is: yes it is. Again, there is a relabelling of driving forces in ourselves since we're social animals and we attribute them to God. And second, you only named the nice and rosey things. If what you say is true, our selfishness is also driven by God. Our greed is driven by God.

As an active agent it is indistinguishable from ourselves as active agents (which is the premise after all), so how would that work in a conflict of interests? There should be none, but there are. How does that work?
Aw, I must have missed that. Carry on than :rolleyes:
Hang on! I'm far from the authority here and have been wrong more often than not.
 
The being they are suggesting is not outside time.
"God alone is" is outside of time. It is eternal, and infinite and unchanging. It does not experience time. Time is either a dimension of the universe (probably not) or a product of our minds (like numbers) that we use to calibrate change. (not to derail the thread ;) )

See, here I run into the problem of not having anything with which I can "test" this. The only counter I can give is: no it isn't. The only support you can give here is: yes it is.
Exactly right. If you have "free choice", then you have to make the best decision you can. You can make that decision on evidence, experience, or both.

To ask for a purely intellectual proof of the existence of God is like asking for the privilege of being able to see with your ears.

Again, there is a relabelling of driving forces in ourselves since we're social animals and we attribute them to God. And second, you only named the nice and rosey things. If what you say is true, our selfishness is also driven by God. Our greed is driven by God.
all the bad stuff is there for sure, but it is all also rooted in th individual search for what makes us feel whole and united. Control, greed and selfishness are all about trying to force that sense of being part of something larger or being loved. What the bad deeds lack is compassion and kindness, but they provide an opportunity for others to show those better traits. Selfishness in all its nasty forms is love without a "beloved". The motivations behind evil acts are the same as those behind kindness, but they are carried out differently.
As an active agent it is indistinguishable from ourselves as active agents (which is the premise after all), so how would that work in a conflict of interests? There should be none, but there are. How does that work?
The best we can do is to act more kindly every chance we get. Find your "beloved" in something or someone or some action. Your stage can be the whole world or just your family and friends. Sacrifice painfully for what you love and be kinder. Your problems will not go away, but they will change and you will be happier.

In RL I run a $15MM business and make difficult decisions every day based on what I believe; the hardest part of the job is setting aside my ego so others can collect the prizes.
 
"God alone is" is outside of time. It is eternal, and infinite and unchanging. It does not experience time. Time is either a dimension of the universe (probably not) or a product of our minds (like numbers) that we use to calibrate change. (not to derail the thread ;) )
See, I know nothing :)

Exactly right. If you have "free choice", then you have to make the best decision you can. You can make that decision on evidence, experience, or both.
To ask for a purely intellectual proof of the existence of God is like asking for the privilege of being able to see with your ears.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]People who are blind do exactly that. Dogs even are thought to use their smell to form a visual picture of the world around them. (sorry, never miss a chance to be "clever")

But I ask not for evidence, I ask for logic, for reasoning. It's a big ask, I realise that. Just looking to see where it takes me.
 
But I ask not for evidence, I ask for logic, for reasoning. It's a big ask, I realise that. Just looking to see where it takes me.
You have to apply logic to something. Usually that "something" are your fundamental assumptions.

If your most fundamental assumption is "god alone is", you would build from there. Adding both logical conclusions and new assumptions.

If your fundamental assumption is "only the physical universe is real", then you would begin there.

What you choose as your initial assumptions will determine the path you follow and many of your conclusions. Where would you begin?
 
We don't know everything about one another. We barely know anything about our physical world based off the alphabet, math, and what you can sense.

I don't know what you know but it might be presumptuous of you to assume people want to experience life differently. That is incidental.

My argument still stands. At random or created with a plan, the right set of circumstances exist allowing us to communicate and live on this planet.

Some people believe someone is controlling it all outside our understanding. Others believe it's governed by a law of science.

The tricky part is determining the best interpreter of it. This is the direct answer of your questions. An additional point to ask is who got that username to ramble on about it for 9 pages?
 
But I ask not for evidence, I ask for logic, for reasoning. It's a big ask, I realise that. Just looking to see where it takes me.

Reasoning and logic is something people do, something you do. Whatever you reason about this you'll still be making it up, sorry. Ultimately you're choosing to believe something and then coming up with "logical" justifications.

Anyway, has someone suggested that you pick up one of Stanislaw Lem's books? I guess you'd enjoy Solaris. The theme of attempting (and failing, and seeing only themselves!) to understand fundamentally different "beings" (aliens or gods, what's the difference from the observer's point of view?) applies. (good) SF writers have been wondering about pretty much the same issues as theologians and philosophers once did! While many of those have been sidetracking into irrelevance!
(hopes that Fifty is no longer around :hide: )
 
Back
Top Bottom