Atheists and attacking/vehemently questioning others' faith

[GenMarshall]

King Flevance, what you should at least realize is that what you say in this thread is word for word exactly the same thing that islamic terrorists say.

Thats what I realised when I fully read into that passage and concluded that it was not right for thoes men to do that sort of action back then. I never seen many atrocities within the Ancient Jewish History in the Old Testiment.

 

[King Flevance]

Thats what I realised when I fully read into that passage and concluded that it was not right for thoes men to do that sort of action back then. I never seen many atrocities within the Ancient Jewish History in the Old Testiment.

Jesus is why we don't have to now. Anyone anywhere can follow Jesus to God. All descendant lines.

 

[GenMarshall]

Then why all of the stories of God commanding such and such to kill people or do heartless things when they are contrary to the Ten Commandments?

 

[King Flevance]

This leads to another question.

If god would interfere if someone is about to commit a crime god does not want him to do, why do we need a criminal court? And why should a court convict these mothers drowning their babies? If god wanted them to do it the court has not business judging them, right? And if god didn't want them to do it he will deal with them, right?

God will deal with them wether we have courts or not. Life in prison can still mean death in hell. Your action dictate what society wants to do with you and what God wants to do with you. If you follow Jesus's, teachings then you will not have to worry about society wanting to lock you up. Until you start preaching the word anyways.

 

[King Flevance]

Then why all of the stories of God commanding such and such to kill people or do heartless things when they are contrary to the Ten Commandments?

Because they are his rules mostly. This doesn't make him a hypocrit like it initially seems. What you will find if you look into it a tad deeper is that the people he always brings to justice are breaking the 10 commandments before God ever showed up. He has no mercy on those who do not want to follow those rules that I personally think everyone can agree on are good rules. Yet, no one can follow them all their whole life.

If those people are not going to follow the rules, why should he? Is that not fair? Everyone has to follow the rules to live in harmony. There are only 10. Humans always demnd way more than 10 rules. Because we cannot follow them. They arent hard rules, but they go against the ways of our society. Some people think you are cool if you do not follow these rules. That is why culture should reflect religion. But this is coming from a religious person too.

 

[batteryacid]

Wow, when I checked yesterday the thread was at least a bit on topic, but now it totally changed to a "receiving order from god" and "how to quote the bible right" thread

My 2 cents: If people think the bible is true, then everything in it must be true, but what most people do is quoting passages that backup their position and ignoring or relativizing others because of historical, or "that was not meant literally" reasons. With this method you can construct every possible moral out of the Bible or the Koran or other religious texts, which is the main reason why I don´t trust religions based on dogmatic texts .

One historical fact is, that the catholic church drove sematics to its peak during the rise of enlightenment, and nevertheless lost in the end, because logical reasoning and didactics based on a text whose passages partly contradict will always lead to a dead end point, in which defending of the argumentation will become impossible because consequent continuation of the argumentation line will lead to absurdity at some point.

 

[carlosMM]

Atheists have been told by people they trust that those who believe in religion are stupid, weak and backward.

You should perhaps realize that atheists have brains, too.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I agree there is a great deal of variety in the OT. My point is simply that how can you decide that some is myth and some is true? Did god really give the commandments to Moses? Did he really create the world as it says in Genesis? By picking out books and saying 'these are god's words' and saying 'these are myths' about other books, are you going by one of your newer prophets or just your own judgement?

I do understand what you are saying. And I do realize that there is a great deal of difficulty in trying to figure out what to make of each book. I actually use several ways of doing it.

1. First of all, my belief that God loves His children, no matter who they are or what lineage they have. He loved even those who lived before Christ. Of course, He may have different ways of dealing with them, but it was always for their own good (even if it doesn't seem like it to them, at the time).

2. What modern scripture has said. This is of course something only a Mormon can use, but, for instance, Joseph Smith gave a different account of the story of Lot that paints him in a slightly better light. In addition, I have actually prayed about specific verses and I feel that I have gotten answers regaqrding their meaning.

3. What science or the study of history has shown to be likely or possible. For instance, I am led to conclude, based on the study of biology and geology, that much of what is described in the early chapters of Genesis could not have happened exactly as described.

However, historians and other scholars who study the era make a few key assumptions that I do not accept - most importantly that God wasn't really revealing the future to prophets, and the like. Although for a historian making such an assumption is necessary, I don't have to share it. And just because there is no evidence, archaeologically or scientifically speaking, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

4. My own opinion. Yeah, this is the least possible reliable way of doing it, but some parts strike me as more literal, or more mythical, or more poetic, or whatever, than others. As ultimately my faith - and my actions - are not based entirely on what my religious texts say, however, I think that I can get away with it.

 

[ironduck]

You go right on ahead if you want to though.

You are seriously suggesting I or anyone else should go right ahead and kill babies if they want to? Is that because you think that in the end everything will be dealt with carefully and therefore my actions have no negative effect on other people?

See why our sins try to tempt us into a loop hole and we end up bashing our face in for no reason?

Not really. I'm playing along with your specific god scenario. I would never attempt to kill babies, rather I'm extending your logic to its inevitable conclusion. If you think some babies will go to hell because they will grow up and be 'sinners' then I'm 'saving' them if I just kill them all while they're guaranteed a place in heaven. Let's say 1 in 10 babies will go to hell if they grow up. Let's say I kill 20 babies. I'll go to hell, they'll all go to heaven. That means instead of having 2 people go to hell (two of the grown up babies) only on person will go to hell - me.

That's a pretty good deal if you ask me. If I could push a button that meant that only half as many people would suffer - even if it meant I personally would suffer - that would definitely make sense to do from a perspective of love.

And that's exactly why your logic is severely messed up and leads to people thinking they are martyrs when they kill other people.

God needed the people in the city destroyed. He also wanted to provide for his followers. He offered Ezekiel a test (even though it was telling him to do so) to follow God on Faith alone that He will deliver a reward to Ezekiel for it. He knew Ezekiel's faith was that strong and wanted it demonstrated to the world. 2 birds with one stone. Tested his people, destroyed a city. It isn't about being flashy as a God to Him. It's about doing what must be done and benefit from it at its best potential.

God needs to destroy people? And god needs people to destroy other people? And you think that's two birds with one stone? Personally I find such views completely void of empathy. I would turn my back on such a god any day. Such a god is not about love.

People like this are easily swayed by propaganda and sometimes are the cause of it. Not God or religion. They are messed up people that use religion as a propaganda tool for their people. It gets heightened when the victom of their forces claiming it in the name of a God. But what they really did it for was Bin Laden's morals. When jesus came, we no longer had to carry out God's will through wars. That is why the NT has authors that are more philosophical in society.

Bin Laden doesn't like America. "Allah told me we should attack them". The people demanded no proof of this. They assumed Bin Laden was telling the truth based on his position in society. But society is inaccurate at telling a person's true morales. People are deceptive when they want to be.

You don't think muslim fanatics pray to Allah? You don't think they recite their sacred scripture? They bring exactly the same arguments as you do. That Allah has told them to be martyrs, that Allah has told them to sacrifice their lives to protect their religion.

I truly find nothing in your posts that I can grab onto and say 'ah, here is some concrete logic and a declaration of love for human life that assures me that you will not do horrible things if you start to hear voices you think are from god'. That's what I find disturbing.

 

[King Flevance]

You are seriously suggesting I or anyone else should go right ahead and kill babies if they want to? Is that because you think that in the end everything will be dealt with carefully and therefore my actions have no negative effect on other people?

I am not suggesting it but if you see it as the right thing to do you will do it anyways. Your logic sounds pretty sick to me. Because you are lazy and want a "quick fix" you would rather kill babies than study about God. They can all go to heaven (the best part of the scenario showing that God DOES protect the innocent) but you just took away their chance to prove their worth as mortal. But the most disturbing thing is simply that instead of you trying to teach the babies about God's kindness and learn of it yourself, you would rather kill the babies send them to haven, yourself to hell, and claim you are a Martyr? For who? Your beliefs. (Even though I know these are your beliefs based off a short-sidedness of mine) Do you know better than God? That is where you are bashing yourself in the face. You are condemning yourself for no reason. By going to hell for the babies when you and the babies can go to heaven.

Not really. I'm playing along with your specific god scenario. I would never attempt to kill babies, rather I'm extending your logic to its inevitable conclusion. If you think some babies will go to hell because they will grow up and be 'sinners' then I'm 'saving' them if I just kill them all while they're guaranteed a place in heaven. Let's say 1 in 10 babies will go to hell if they grow up. Let's say I kill 20 babies. I'll go to hell, they'll all go to heaven. That means instead of having 2 people go to hell (two of the grown up babies) only on person will go to hell - me.

This is only an inevitable conclusion the way you see it. God will not stand by and let you kill all the babies. Some He put hre for a specific reason. He will send you to hell before he lets you touch one of them because He knows why you are killing the babies. And in the process not following His teachings. You do not have the right to play God and decide who goes to heaven and hell. You may spar a couple babies in the end, maybe but the way God works these may be people that were going to grow up and go to heaven so possibly you just achieved sending yourself to hell and changing nothing else.

That's a pretty good deal if you ask me.

It sounds pretty ******ed if you ask me.

If I could push a button that meant that only half as many people would suffer - even if it meant I personally would suffer - that would definitely make sense to do from a perspective of love.

A) You will never have this scenario presented to you in a crystal clear view. The closest you could come is it "may" reduce suffering in our world.
B) I don't disagree with the analogy though. I think alot of people would push that button. But if the button means eternal damnation, I won't push the button. Fore, then I am not only condemning myself but others as well for eternity at random choice whereas God will judge every soul.

And that's exactly why your logic is severely messed up and leads to people thinking they are martyrs when they kill other people.

I am not instructing these people. You are simply trying to show me how religion is used as propaganda to some people. Obviously, satan is working his way into these people's minds. As I said before on one of these threads, I believe only a faith that follows Jesus's teachings is the real faith. All others are false (misguided). Sorry if that offends but with Jesus you will learn that there is no more need to kill someone in the name of God. Jesus took care of all that. Propaganda.

God needs to destroy people? And god needs people to destroy other people? And you think that's two birds with one stone? Personally I find such views completely void of empathy. I would turn my back on such a god any day. Such a god is not about love.

He did back then. Once our spirits corrupted, we were doomed. Like I said also, I haven't read all of Ezekiel. But I garauntee these people were probably given a choice to turn to the Lord and refused it as well.

You don't think muslim fanatics pray to Allah? You don't think they recite their sacred scripture? They bring exactly the same arguments as you do. That Allah has told them to be martyrs, that Allah has told them to sacrifice their lives to protect their religion.

My God gave me Jesus so I don't have to do this and I know it.

I truly find nothing in your posts that I can grab onto and say 'ah, here is some concrete logic and a declaration of love for human life that assures me that you will not do horrible things if you start to hear voices you think are from god'. That's what I find disturbing.

Sorry, I love people. I just think of us as a world of idiots that jump to conclusions too easy. I would go into it a little more but I must head in to work. I may not get to reply again until monday. I will check it in the morning though.

 

[ironduck]

I am not suggesting it but if you see it as the right thing to do you will do it anyways. Your logic sounds pretty sick to me.

The logic is sick because it's about killing people. You presented the logic, I'm merely leading it to its conclusion.

Because you are lazy and want a "quick fix" you would rather kill babies than study about God. They can all go to heaven (the best part of the scenario showing that God DOES protect the innocent) but you just took away their chance to prove their worth as mortal. But the most disturbing thing is simply that instead of you trying to teach the babies about God's kindness and learn of it yourself, you would rather kill the babies send them to haven, yourself to hell, and claim you are a Martyr? For who? Your beliefs. (Even though I know these are your beliefs based off a short-sidedness of mine) Do you know better than God? That is where you are bashing yourself in the face. You are condemning yourself for no reason. By going to hell for the babies when you and the babies can go to heaven.

Here's where you contradict yourself. You have stated several times that some people will go to hell. So some of these babies will go to hell, giving them eternal damnation according to you. If someone steps in and makes sure no baby will get eternal damnation simply by killing them while they're guaranteed a place in heaven that person is being a whole lot kinder than your god who will condemn some of them to eternal damnation. I'm surprised you cannot see that.

This is only an inevitable conclusion the way you see it. God will not stand by and let you kill all the babies.

You keep mentioning this, but yet god does stand by and let people kill babies. All the time! Every day! Millions upon millions of babies have been killed. Your god has stood by and let people kill them. That you somehow think that your god won't let someone kill babies in order to save 10% of them (or however many) from eternal damnation, but that he has no trouble allowing millions of babies to be killed out of sheer indifference or unkindness strikes me as absurd.

A) You will never have this scenario presented to you in a crystal clear view. The closest you could come is it "may" reduce suffering in our world.

Actually, according to your logic that A) some people will go to hell and B) everyone killed as a baby goes to heaven, the scenario I set up is crystal clear. It's also completely false in my view, but then I don't believe in heaven or hell. You do. You set up these parameters.

B) I don't disagree with the analogy though. I think alot of people would push that button. But if the button means eternal damnation, I won't push the button. Fore, then I am not only condemning myself but others as well for eternity at random choice whereas God will judge every soul.

How so? You said yourself that all who die as babies will go to heaven. That's what this entire scenario is based on.

I am not instructing these people. You are simply trying to show me how religion is used as propaganda to some people. Obviously, satan is working his way into these people's minds. As I said before on one of these threads, I believe only a faith that follows Jesus's teachings is the real faith. All others are false (misguided). Sorry if that offends but with Jesus you will learn that there is no more need to kill someone in the name of God. Jesus took care of all that. Propaganda.

You say you follow Jesus's teaching and at the same time you say that if god commanded you then you would do exactly as he told you to do. Even if it meant killing babies. That's not following Jesus's teaching the way I've read them.

He did back then. Once our spirits corrupted, we were doomed. Like I said also, I haven't read all of Ezekiel. But I garauntee these people were probably given a choice to turn to the Lord and refused it as well.

You guarantee that the babies were given a choice and refused it?

Sorry, I love people. I just think of us as a world of idiots that jump to conclusions too easy.

If you love people then you won't kill them even if your god tells you to. As for jumping to conclusions, if that's aimed at me please note that I'm simply trying to decipher what exactly you have been saying in this thread. I would be glad to be wrong.

 

[warpus]

No, you are right. Like those mothers a while back drowning their babies because God said so. I personally, think it may have been satan posing as God in thier life. Or as a God. I don't think their faith was strong. But I must also consider if it WAS God as to not be judgemental. If this is the case, then wherever these mothers are I assure you it is where God wants them. Although, I will say that these cases do not have the glory of God in their actions though. So I am lead to believe it was satan passing himself off as the divine.

Yeah, so.. if you hear a message from "God" telling you to kill babies, you're going to assume it's God, and not Satan?

But if somebody else does it's immediately Satan pretending to be God?

How much sense does that make?

Although, God's laws come before humans.

Not if God's laws include killing babies

Sort of, yes. But you are condemning yourself. God may not want those babies to die. He will kill you before you kill one that he intends to have serve some purpose he feels is more important than your life. And then you will go to hell.

You have an incredibly warped grasp on reality.

Or you're pulling our legs.

So tell me, if your god commands you to fly plane into a building, would you do it?

He would probably only do it if there were babies in the building

 

[mdwh]

The OP seems one great big flamebait / strawman. Would it be okay for me to ask "Why are religious people always attacking others?"?

Can you post examples where atheists have "attacked" on these forums, or the real world?

Yes, we debate issues of theism and religion with others. That's because *gasp* we're on a forum for debate.

 

[Trajan12]

What I dont get is why people are still trying to explain themselves to feverent supporters of atheism. Atheists will always question religion.

 

[El_Machinae]

I don't think that we should try to convince King that the logical conclusion of his faith is that it's reasonable to kill babies. I was hoping that he would be initially horrified at such a thought, enough to see that his faith is illogical. He wasn't.

I'm often horrified at the things that religious people say. I should really be more careful.

Trajan: you should read the last few pages. There is some pretty scary stuff being typed by someone who claims to be Christian. I would hope you could see why we're not dropping the bone...

 

[Mathilda]

Moderator Action: This one has gone off topic. Closed.
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