Atlantis: What is it all about?

[Robert Can't]

I concur. John Anthony West is one of the greatest Egyptologists (he won an Emmy) and his theories on the Sphinx and its connections (and importance!) to Atlantis is truly exquisite.

Sadly was not is. He passed away in 2018. He was a great mind so its tragic but I think he really opened peoples' eyes to the bigger and more important story that is out there. Whether it is YD, SIDA or some other big climactic event it can not be argued against that human civilisation is much older than we thought.

 

[Snowygerry]

(...) In addition, to fight a war with an island nation, that enemy nation must be within the practicalities of Mycenaean naval capabilities.

Not necessarily - it could be a war with a Greek colony somewhere, that would only require Atlantis to be in "range" of that colony,

or was it war wih the actual Greek city states ?

 

[NinjaCow64]

Sadly was not is. He passed away in 2018. He was a great mind so its tragic but I think he really opened peoples' eyes to the bigger and more important story that is out there. Whether it is YD, SIDA or some other big climactic event it can not be argued against that human civilisation is much older than we thought.

Oh no. Sorry to hear that.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

The version of the plagues I heard was a red tide drove frogs ashore, they died and flies proliferated. Hail or dust storms, the first born dying from a fungal contamination of food stores, parting of the Red Sea by a rare but actual northeastern wind resulting in exposed ridges. Or was that the Sea of Reeds.

Most of my Children of the Lion novels are still packed away, but when I find the one dealing with the plagues, I'll quote the relevant couple of paragraphs where someone explains why the "plagues" have perfectly normal explanations that don't depend on any sort of magic or godlike power.

Of course this is assuming that there ever was someone named Moses and the Exodus really happened. Archaeologists have been trying for decades to figure out if anything matches up between what's been discovered and the stories in the Old Testament, and so far nothing does. It's not enough to find the remains of a city in a particular location. The ruins have to date from the appropriate time, and if the story says the walls were destroyed in a certain way, there has to be evidence. For this reason, and the simple fact that Earth doesn't just stop and start its rotation, the Joshua story is just not believable.

 

[Akka]

The Med was once dry was it not? Perhaps ancient cultures lived on the land before it flooded.

IIRC, dry Med was a VERY long time ago, not even sure humanity existed already. Even if it did, it's probably too long ago for it to be able to influence Plato.
I'm definitely in the "old Crete civ destroyed by Santorin" as an inspiration. It fits both the "great civilization on an island destroyed by the waters" and the approximate time period.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

IIRC, dry Med was a VERY long time ago, not even sure humanity existed already. Even if it did, it's probably too long ago for it to be able to influence Plato.
I'm definitely in the "old Crete civ destroyed by Santorin" as an inspiration. It fits both the "great civilization on an island destroyed by the waters" and the approximate time period.

5.3 million years ago, according to a quick Google search, so definitely pre-human era.

Fun fact: Science fiction author Poul Anderson wrote a short story in his Time Patrol series in which two agents go back to the time when the dry Mediterranean basin first began to fill up with water. Their assignment is to "film" it so viewers can experience it via virtual reality (they were flitting around over and through the water pouring in on their flying timecycles - time machines that resemble motorbikes without wheels). If anyone's curious to read this, it's an excellent story. The title is "Gibraltar Falls".

 

[Birdjaguar]

Atlantis was a civilisation of ancient catboys from Mars.

Your "baby" was thrown out with this bathwater. Sorry. Thanks for filling out your comments with a nice link.

 

[Berzerker]

Not sure what was "erroneous" about my post so I will further elaborate. John Anthony West and Robert Schoch showed the age of the Sphinx to be much older than previously though. If you want the sources the basics are covered in West's 1979 book Serpent in the Sky or you could read Robert Schoch on the topic here.

I saw another geologist looking at the plateau and he thought the Sphinx preceded the 2nd pyramid by a long time based on the way water would have drained toward the Nile. I wont do him justice but from what I remember there was a shallow area where the pyramid stands that gathered water before it drained thru the Sphinx enclosure, that explains the erosion we see today.

Sadly was not is. He passed away in 2018. He was a great mind so its tragic but I think he really opened peoples' eyes to the bigger and more important story that is out there. Whether it is YD, SIDA or some other big climactic event it can not be argued against that human civilisation is much older than we thought.

I hope to live long enough to see what they find at Gobekli Tepe, I heard most of the site is still buried. The images so far are tantalizing.

here's a short youtube from a guy in India talking about the divine handbag we see around the world

He thinks its a battery but he does show the handbag in several cultures and it also appears on a T shaped pillar at Gobekli Tepe thousands of years before the history we know began. I'd like to know what happened in between Gobekli Tepe and the Sumerian civilization. The Persian Gulf flooded, the rising Mediterranean broke thru to flood the Black Sea. But why did we take so long to get going again? Maybe 'technology' was rejected after the flood as people interpreted such disasters as god's anger.

They bury massive sites that took them generations to build, why? To symbolize the sinking of the 'age' below the western horizon? That might be why Moses was angry with the golden calf, it was the age of Aries, not Taurus. Jesus was the lamb of god (Aries) who became the fisher of men (Pisces), imagine if his followers insisted it was the age of Aries, not Pisces.

I concur. John Anthony West is one of the greatest Egyptologists (he won an Emmy) and his theories on the Sphinx and its connections (and importance!) to Atlantis is truly exquisite.

I'm familiar with him but I never read his book. Was it Robert Bauval and West who came up with the idea the 3 pyramids, sphinx and Nile River depict Orion's Belt in relation to the Milky Way as they appeared long ago (~10,500 bc?) possibly marking the date of the Flood?

I've heard different dates for the Great Flood, Zecharia Sitchin says 13,000 years ago probably based on the Younger Dryas event. No, I think he came up with that date based on the 3600 year orbit of his Nibiru planet. He thinks Nibiru was nearby ~3800 bc, so thats 7400 bc and 11000 bc or 13,000 years ago. The myth of the disappearing and returning god plays into this.

I heard a Tlingit elder say their flood was 14,000 years ago. I think the most recent addition to the Scablands happened about 13,000 years ago, Lake Agassiz around 12,800 (a likely suspect for causing the YD).

IIRC, dry Med was a VERY long time ago, not even sure humanity existed already. Even if it did, it's probably too long ago for it to be able to influence Plato.
I'm definitely in the "old Crete civ destroyed by Santorin" as an inspiration. It fits both the "great civilization on an island destroyed by the waters" and the approximate time period.

According to the story the divide was at Gibraltar, the Atlanteans were invading the Mediterranean from beyond the pillars of Hercules. There is disagreement about the geography of Atlantis, we know about the concentric circles but I think Plato said it was a large landmass comparable to Asia Minor and the terminology may not mean island as we know it, but might refer to a peninsula or landmass that juts out into a body of water. Recent documentaries are looking at SW Spain/Portugal and NW Africa.

As for Crete, much of their fleet got wiped out and of course the coast got raked by tsunamis but the Greeks invaded and burned Knossos around 1450 bc. Now its possible the Thera eruption caused Crete to decline in power and the Greeks took advantage, but there appears to be ~150-200 year gap between the two events.

Of course this is assuming that there ever was someone named Moses and the Exodus really happened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos

Semitic peoples leaving Egypt in that time frame looks very likely. Were they kicked out, fleeing wrathful Egyptians or escaping slavery? Maybe all 3...

 

[Birdjaguar]

No, I think he came up with that date based on the 3600 year orbit of his Nibiru planet. He thinks Nibiru was nearby ~3800 bc, so thats 7400 bc and 11000 bc or 13,000 years ago. The myth of the disappearing and returning god plays into this.

And you have to add 200 BCE. I guess we all missed that pass by.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I saw another geologist looking at the plateau and he thought the Sphinx preceded the 2nd pyramid by a long time based on the way water would have drained toward the Nile. I wont do him justice but from what I remember there was a shallow area where the pyramid stands that gathered water before it drained thru the Sphinx enclosure, that explains the erosion we see today.



I hope to live long enough to see what they find at Gobekli Tepe, I heard most of the site is still buried. The images so far are tantalizing.

here's a short youtube from a guy in India talking about the divine handbag we see around the world

He thinks its a battery but he does show the handbag in several cultures and it also appears on a T shaped pillar at Gobekli Tepe thousands of years before the history we know began. I'd like to know what happened in between Gobekli Tepe and the Sumerian civilization. The Persian Gulf flooded, the rising Mediterranean broke thru to flood the Black Sea. But why did we take so long to get going again? Maybe 'technology' was rejected after the flood as people interpreted such disasters as god's anger.

They bury massive sites that took them generations to build, why? To symbolize the sinking of the 'age' below the western horizon? That might be why Moses was angry with the golden calf, it was the age of Aries, not Taurus. Jesus was the lamb of god (Aries) who became the fisher of men (Pisces), imagine if his followers insisted it was the age of Aries, not Pisces.



I'm familiar with him but I never read his book. Was it Robert Bauval and West who came up with the idea the 3 pyramids, sphinx and Nile River depict Orion's Belt in relation to the Milky Way as they appeared long ago (~10,500 bc?) possibly marking the date of the Flood?

I've heard different dates for the Great Flood, Zecharia Sitchin says 13,000 years ago probably based on the Younger Dryas event. No, I think he came up with that date based on the 3600 year orbit of his Nibiru planet. He thinks Nibiru was nearby ~3800 bc, so thats 7400 bc and 11000 bc or 13,000 years ago. The myth of the disappearing and returning god plays into this.

I heard a Tlingit elder say their flood was 14,000 years ago. I think the most recent addition to the Scablands happened about 13,000 years ago, Lake Agassiz around 12,800 (a likely suspect for causing the YD).



According to the story the divide was at Gibraltar, the Atlanteans were invading the Mediterranean from beyond the pillars of Hercules. There is disagreement about the geography of Atlantis, we know about the concentric circles but I think Plato said it was a large landmass comparable to Asia Minor and the terminology may not mean island as we know it, but might refer to a peninsula or landmass that juts out into a body of water. Recent documentaries are looking at SW Spain/Portugal and NW Africa.

As for Crete, much of their fleet got wiped out and of course the coast got raked by tsunamis but the Greeks invaded and burned Knossos around 1450 bc. Now its possible the Thera eruption caused Crete to decline in power and the Greeks took advantage, but there appears to be ~150-200 year gap between the two events.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos

Semitic peoples leaving Egypt in that time frame looks very likely. Were they kicked out, fleeing wrathful Egyptians or escaping slavery? Maybe all 3...

I was wondering how long it would take you to go to Sitchin and the alien Louis Vuitton handbag.

Yes, I've read about the Hyksos. One of the things I did when deciding to read the Children of the Lion series was to simultaneously read the Old Testament (to see what parts of the novels were inspired by the bible) and do research on what parts of real history inspired the events of the novels. The Hyksos feature prominently from the 2nd - 8th novels of the series, being introduced in The Shepherd Kings and defeated in Sword of Glory. Then the novels focus more on the Moses story and segues into the Trojan War (some events overlap as different branches of the clan of the Children of the Lion spread out - some remaining in Egypt, some accompanying the Israelites, we're introduced to the branch of the family on the island they refer to as Home, but which I suspect was meant to be the one that was destroyed when Thera erupted, and there were people in that clan on both sides of the Trojan War).

Honestly, the Hyksos are not proof that the Moses story really happened. There are a LOT of aspects of Exodus and Joshua that need archaeological and geological verification to convince me that any part of them were real, historical events that were related in the Old Testament. So far I've not seen any, and no grand announcements have been made that irrefutable proof has been found.

 

[Berzerker]

And you have to add 200 BCE. I guess we all missed that pass by.

I was tracking back to the flood, going forward 3400 would be the next perihelion - the age of Aquarius. As for its passage 200 bc I'd have to reread what Sitchin says about that, I'm sure he found records of it. The 3800 date was based on the Mesopotamian calendar and kings lists and state of the Sumerian civilization. This would mean Nibiru was in the neighborhood when the Younger Dryas began.

If Jesus was taken by god they had to catch up to Nibiru

 

[E.man]

Of course this is assuming that there ever was someone named Moses and the Exodus really happened. Archaeologists have been trying for decades to figure out if anything matches up between what's been discovered and the stories in the Old Testament, and so far nothing does. It's not enough to find the remains of a city in a particular location. The ruins have to date from the appropriate time, and if the story says the walls were destroyed in a certain way, there has to be evidence. For this reason, and the simple fact that Earth doesn't just stop and start its rotation, the Joshua story is just not believable.

Seems the Egyptians documented just about everything but we haven't found anything about the supposed Exodus.

It really quite amazes me that there's no document at all. Also surprised that the lack of evidence isn't more widely known.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Seems the Egyptians documented just about everything but we haven't found anything about the supposed Exodus.

It really quite amazes me that there's no document at all. Also surprised that the lack of evidence isn't more widely known.

Yep. I tend to get a bit impatient with people who insist that aliens had to have created the pyramids and temples and other monuments, because humans didn't have "advanced" technology or know-how.

They had all the technology and know-how they needed, plus a dedicated workforce that were NOT slaves, thankyouverymuch.

The Egyptians had fantastic skills in engineering and mathematics, and as you say, they documented everything, no matter how trivial it might seem to modern people.

It's a circular argument regarding evidence: "We know Moses and the Exodus were real, because the Bible said so." When asked how they know the biblical account is accurate, the response tends to be, "Because the Bible said it is."



Sorry, but that's not evidence. I remember watching a documentary years ago (wish I could remember what it was called) in which a group of Jewish scholars were discussing these stories. The general consensus was that yes, they were stories, meant to teach lessons, and not meant to be taken as actual historical events. Given the lack of physical evidence, that seems to me a more reasonable view.

 

[Kyriakos]

"The Egyptians documented everything" - in what way? Ancient Egypt (before the Ptolemaic Empire) functioned with casts and the priest cast never presented anything to the public, which is why any knowledge they may have had was lost.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

"The Egyptians documented everything" - in what way? Ancient Egypt (before the Ptolemaic Empire) functioned with casts and the priest cast never presented anything to the public, which is why any knowledge they may have had was lost.

Why are you assuming the priests were the only literate people in Egypt?

 

[Kyriakos]

Why are you assuming the priests were the only literate people in Egypt?

I am not sure what kind of documentation you have in mind. Maybe post an example?
That ancient Egypt functioned like that is what ancient Greek sources present. They may be false, but at least sources close to the era presenting otherwise would be needed - or actual records.

 

[Edmund Ironside]

The Med was once dry was it not? Perhaps ancient cultures lived on the land before it flooded.

The Black Sea flooded much more recently, perhaps around 5000 BC, so that is another possible source for the legend of Atlantis. The Black Sea was also a part of the known 'Greek World.' However I am on the side of Atlantis being more likely a reference to the ancient Minoans. The Black Sea flood tends to be more commonly linked to another possibly historical event.

Seems the Egyptians documented just about everything

In that case I am sure you will be able to recreate a wide variety of ancient Egyptian food using all those recipes they recorded, while listening to all that ancient Egyptian music that they left us!
Also I am assuming you consider the Battle of Megiddo to be the first battle in the history of Egypt, because you know, it seems the Egyptians documented just about everything...


Some mythological tales probably are just pure fictions. Others like Troy (the Iliad) and the Vikings discovering America (Saga of Erik the Red & the Vínland Sagas) were assumed to be fictional, until an archaeological discovery showed otherwise. Of course they blend the fantastical with the historical, but then so do other historical sources such as the journey of Marco Polo. You just need a healthy dose of skepticism while also keeping an open mind.

On a fun side note, to the best of my knowledge the only historical records we have of the Sea People attacks during the Bronze Age Collapse are from the Egyptians and from the Bible. They would be considered relatively weak evidence for the existence of the sea people without the existence of the other, so provide a nice example of them supporting each other, in comparison to the Exodus where the silence of one hurts the other.

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

It's an example of pursuing tourism at all costs and the risks of overdevelopment and stressing the natural environment. In a weird way it was kind of romantic for most of the people to stay behind. A capital city with that large of a transportation hub is a tough loss though.

 

[Berzerker]

people must have known the Black Sea flood was coming

 

[Berzerker]

Seems the Egyptians documented just about everything but we haven't found anything about the supposed Exodus.

It really quite amazes me that there's no document at all. Also surprised that the lack of evidence isn't more widely known.

Yep. I tend to get a bit impatient with people who insist that aliens had to have created the pyramids and temples and other monuments, because humans didn't have "advanced" technology or know-how.

They had all the technology and know-how they needed, plus a dedicated workforce that were NOT slaves, thankyouverymuch.

The Egyptians had fantastic skills in engineering and mathematics, and as you say, they documented everything, no matter how trivial it might seem to modern people.

Khufu didn't document the Great Pyramid

It's a circular argument regarding evidence: "We know Moses and the Exodus were real, because the Bible said so." When asked how they know the biblical account is accurate, the response tends to be, "Because the Bible said it is."



Sorry, but that's not evidence. I remember watching a documentary years ago (wish I could remember what it was called) in which a group of Jewish scholars were discussing these stories. The general consensus was that yes, they were stories, meant to teach lessons, and not meant to be taken as actual historical events. Given the lack of physical evidence, that seems to me a more reasonable view.

Semitic peoples from the Levant did invade Egypt and settle in the area described by the Bible as the home of the Hebrews. The Hyksos arrived ~1640 bc and the Bible says the people were there 400 years before Moses led them out. The Hyksos ruled in their part of Egypt for a little over a century before being defeated by Egyptians. Maybe the slaves following Moses were descendants of the Hyksos and Moses royal blood line was thru the Hyksos pharoahs.

The argument is the archaeological record shows events in Egypt support the idea of a semitic exodus from Egypt following the fall of the Hyksos, maybe multiple times. The Bible says they were enslaved and Moses led them to freedom. The Hyksos weren't slaves, but they lost around 1500 bc and could have become slaves if they didn't flee.