Attn: Military Geniuses

[podraza]

Hey guys.

So I've attached a game (warlords). This could be my first win on emperor. But not if I screw up this next war.

I am Augustus and I am going for a domination victory on a small map. I've got HC to kill next. The only problem is, he's got just as much technology as I do, if not more. He's got more units than I do, and he seems to have the full assortment of units, including elephants. He and I share a long border with many potential places for him to launch a counter attack.

I feel like I need to attack him now, or his numerous leads will only grow.

Check and it out and advise, please.

 

[podraza]

Alright, I understand. Nobody really wants to load these things up and look at them. I never do.

So let me put it in the form of a easy, no visual aids required, general inquiry.

I need to destroy the Incas but they have more units than I do and are slightly more advanced than me in military technology. They are also a financial Civ, and I am not, which makes me think that I must go to war with them right away, because every turn I delay will only make it harder.

I've thought about the idea of declaring on them and then letting them come into my territory, where hopefully I can outsmart them and destroy all of their units. But I haven't had much luck with this in the past, the enemy tends to not be quite as stupid as the barbarians. Just because you stand on a forested hill doesn't mean they will attack you. Most likely they'll just pass you up on the way to pillaging your iron.

Maybe use of catapults is the key? I know the AI doesn't exploit those, or defend against them, very well.

 

[B1sh0p]

Sounds like the same situation I'm in with Isabella in my game. We're close in tech, she may have a slight lead, and I've just now caught up to her in military. We both have huge empires, and the rest of the civs on our continent are all vassals.

I'm planning on taking her out next session. Unless someone has some better advice, my plan is simple. Build up my military some more, enough to have 2-3 really good assault stacks, then make enough cavalry to position at least 2 in each of the border cities with either her, or her vassals. Assault in force with my stacks, (making heavy use of cannons to weaken the defenses, then make it a cakewalk for my army to finish off the defenders) and keep the reserve cavalry busy with any counterattacks.

That's what I'd do anyway.

 

[podraza]

Well I don't have access to those types of units yet, its only 400 AD and I've only just acquired catapults.

Maybe this is just part of playing emperor. On Monarch, if you plan correctly, you can have the larger army. Maybe on Emperor, you can't have the larger army and must learn to win with the smaller one. But how to do that?

 

[sveint]

Just had a look. Now I usually play larger maps and never small maps, so your situation looks very good compared to what I mostly see.

You have two cities you can immediately assault and capture/raize. Calculate the minimum force needed and take those on the first turn. My second goal would be the larger city next to the Persians but it's up to you. In your two eastern cities next to his capital I'd invest in some city walls. Basically try to trade for time there (you have a very large zone they need to cross to get to your cities) while you capture cities in the west.

The war should only last a few (10?) turns and you should make peace even on unfavorable terms - anything by returning a city. That way you should be well place for a new quick offensive later.

Also consider letting some of your cities grow a bit more, they are nowhere near the happiness caps. Whipping forges pays off.

 

[podraza]

Just had a look. Now I usually play larger maps and never small maps, so your situation looks very good compared to what I mostly see.

You have two cities you can immediately assault and capture/raize. Calculate the minimum force needed and take those on the first turn. My second goal would be the larger city next to the Persians but it's up to you. In your two eastern cities next to his capital I'd invest in some city walls. Basically try to trade for time there (you have a very large zone they need to cross to get to your cities) while you capture cities in the west.

The war should only last a few (10?) turns and you should make peace even on unfavorable terms - anything by returning a city. That way you should be well place for a new quick offensive later.

Also consider letting some of your cities grow a bit more, they are nowhere near the happiness caps. Whipping forges pays off.

Would you suggest I execute this 10 turn war right away? Or take some time to build up more and different troops? I've only just learned construction and don't have very many catapults yet. I think catapults are going to be the only (best) way I can defend myself against his counter attack.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

I doubt you will make peace quickly - the AI is not going to be satisfied with peace if they outnumber you and think they have the advantage. I can't download your map right now, but some general suggestions:

- Catapults will really help - perhaps 50% of your army should be catapults if you are taking on an equal AI.

- Prepare to absorb a counterattack first - if they outnumber you then you can't afford to waste time reducing their cities until you have defeated their counterattack. So you probably want to ramp up your defenses - spearmen + good defense units in every city, catapults in every city. Plus a couple of reserve stacks of catapults + good attack units to get to the cities where their stacks appear.

- Try to get them involved in another war if you can - either by bribing someone to attack them, or bribing them to attack someone else.

- Don't declare war too early - if you have open borders spy out their troops. Until you can easily counter the likely stack they will send in your direction you should not declare war. One thing I've found is that wars are best prosecuted quickly - you will lose wars of attrition again the AI due to their advantages. But if you can take out their counterattack and then have enough troops left to keep reducing their cities quickly you can win easily. So you need to accelerate your troop production - which probably means harming your economy by whipping lots of catapults.

- Just because they are financial doesn't mean they are going to outtech you - it sounds like you have killed someone else already so you may have more terrain and cities - which means that your better running of these cities can negate their financial bonus and the number of cities and population may negate the emperor bonus. A later war might be better to your advantage - eg beeline to grenadiers (CR3 Praets make excellent grenadiers).

- With Praetorians you don't particularly need to fear elephants - and cheap spearmen can really help. Also your army might be better promoted from previous wars - so you may be stronger than you think. Take this into account when comparing the army size. And you can ignore their city defense units - you really want to compare the attack stack that you can launch with the attack stack that they can launch.

- Your other strength is creative - can you put enough cultural pressure on their cities to flip a few, or at least steal their well worked cottages? They will probably declare war on you eventually, but that may be to your advantage.

 

[jimbob27]

I'll have a look when I get home from work in a couple of hours. I like wars and I hate HC with a vengance, so i'll try and kick his arse for you, and let you know how I got on.

 

[wioneo]

What did Cappa ever do to you(other than having an annoyingly unpronouncable name)?

 

[podraza]

I appreciate everybody's help. I never hated HC all that much. In game, he and I are actually good buddies. Shame I have to turn on him.

 

[gaiko]

Yeah, HC used to have me fooled, but no more. Especially in WL as Ind/Fin, the guy will build and grow large, so he's always near the top of my hit list. In fact, all Fin civs are at the top, followed by Ind civs, and HC is both, so you get the picture. Indeed, I'll try to stay as friendly as I can with aggressive civs like Toku, etc. in order to prioritize the builders. The only possible exceptions might be Monty if he is close, or perhaps Alex (if close). Or if an aggressive civ is in the way of me getting at a builder behind them.

Since that means you'll be building a mighty armed force to acomplish this, that might also be enough to deter even the "crazies".

So never get too friendly with HC!

I appreciate everybody's help. I never hated HC all that much. In game, he and I are actually good buddies. Shame I have to turn on him.

 

[wioneo]

The AIs always seem to like him...

 

[InvisibleStalke]

I loath him - probably because he always used to attack me first. Every game I've encountered him he has been the first to declare war.

 

[wioneo]

I loath him - probably because he always used to attack me first. Every game I've encountered him he has been the first to declare war.

Are you sure that you are not confusing the Incans with the Aztecs?
Native Mexicans and their silly names...

 

[gaiko]

Precisely my point. If the AI(s) like 'em, kill 'em! That goes for Cyrus, Bismarck and the rest of the killer techer-builders. They are your worst enemies in the long run, because they will tech their way to a formidable military in the end game while they try to beat you in the space race. And they get the other AI's to "like them" to block a diplomacy win by you.

So zap them early when they are relatively weak if you can.

The AIs always seem to like him...

 

[cabert]

i won't open the save right now, but if you can have a good pack of catapults, with antimelee and antimounted units for protection, go for his closest cities.
If they are good to keep, it could be enough for a while.
If they are razing stuff, heal and reinforce then go on.
I usually go for 2 more cities after a good war.
I presume you don't know feodalism (so no vassal state)?

 

[Norseman2]

I took a look at your game. At a first glance, you probably would not win a war with him right now. You need about twice as much military power as you have. (However, having played into this a bit, it seems HC builds up as well, so just get a good defense force and call it done). Unfortunately, all your units are city attackers, so I don't think you'd be able to compete with him immediately on a defensive fight. I tried building up your military a little bit, and focusing on defensive promotions and units, and I was able to hold him off. I didn't need to use the city attackers at all, so you could use them to attack easily. Just get crossbowmen, build some spearmen, and grab theocracy when the prophet comes. You might also want to trade with Cyrus for some stuff. If you can get pikemen, that's good too. Pikemen and crossbowmen should handle everything he throws at you for a while. All the while you should be building up your military to stay competitive with him.

I used workers to chop the forests and speed things up, and then I used them to make roads along the border. You may want to do the same. It makes it a lot easier to defend your border when you can move your units to where they are needed.

Whatever you do, be ready to take Vilcas right away. If you don't, Tenochtitlan will get disconnected from the rest of your empire. The trick I used was minimal offense. I kept the city raiders in reserve, just to be ready for anything HC threw at me. In general, they were 1-2 unit stacks, but there was a single 6 unit stack of 4 macemen and 2 catapults. As I said, the minimal offense was unnecessary. He doesn't throw a lot at you, so 2 crossbowmen and pikemen per 4-5 squares of border with roads should just skim by. You might want a little more than that to be on the safe side, for those occasional 6 unit stacks. Once you start wiping out his cities, his production will go down, and your military growth will outpace his.

 

[JimT]

I'll have a look when I get home from work in a couple of hours. I like wars and I hate HC with a vengance, so i'll try and kick his arse for you, and let you know how I got on.

Wow, I love him, or at least my copy of the game does. Rolled him on random three times and have to say love his traits, love his UB and like his UU (who needs to wait for an axe rush). Would hate him as an enemy on Warlords, but that hasnt happened.

 

[podraza]

I took a look at your game. At a first glance, you probably would not win a war with him right now. You need about twice as much military power as you have. (However, having played into this a bit, it seems HC builds up as well, so just get a good defense force and call it done). Unfortunately, all your units are city attackers, so I don't think you'd be able to compete with him immediately on a defensive fight. I tried building up your military a little bit, and focusing on defensive promotions and units, and I was able to hold him off. I didn't need to use the city attackers at all, so you could use them to attack easily. Just get crossbowmen, build some spearmen, and grab theocracy when the prophet comes. You might also want to trade with Cyrus for some stuff. If you can get pikemen, that's good too. Pikemen and crossbowmen should handle everything he throws at you for a while. All the while you should be building up your military to stay competitive with him.

I used workers to chop the forests and speed things up, and then I used them to make roads along the border. You may want to do the same. It makes it a lot easier to defend your border when you can move your units to where they are needed.

Whatever you do, be ready to take Vilcas right away. If you don't, Tenochtitlan will get disconnected from the rest of your empire. The trick I used was minimal offense. I kept the city raiders in reserve, just to be ready for anything HC threw at me. In general, they were 1-2 unit stacks, but there was a single 6 unit stack of 4 macemen and 2 catapults. As I said, the minimal offense was unnecessary. He doesn't throw a lot at you, so 2 crossbowmen and pikemen per 4-5 squares of border with roads should just skim by. You might want a little more than that to be on the safe side, for those occasional 6 unit stacks. Once you start wiping out his cities, his production will go down, and your military growth will outpace his.

This is extremely helpful, thank you. If I follow, the plan needs to be, in order:

1. Have workers build road along border. My question - Do you mean that literally? Right along the border tiles? Won't they be pillaged? Doesn't matter?

2. Rush defensive units, spears and crossbow, and put them in 4 man groups along the border. Their role is just to absorb enemy attacks. My question - how do I get the enemy to attack ME, rather than walk right by me on the way to the city?

3. Declare war as soon as defensive force is finished, take Vilcas right away, then just wait it out until his force is depleted.

4. Go on the offense, take cities.

Anything to add to this?

 

[Norseman2]

This is extremely helpful, thank you. If I follow, the plan needs to be, in order:

1. Have workers build road along border. My question - Do you mean that literally? Right along the border tiles? Won't they be pillaged? Doesn't matter?

It doesn't have to be right along the border, but close to it. You want to have some buffer space between the roads and your cities. It's also nice to have some advance warning, so, where possible, you want to keep it just off of the border. That way, if a massive stack shows up, you can coordinate two defense teams against it instead of just one.

Any forests that you're not using on that road should also be chopped. Jungles too, if you have time, but don't take too long or your units will become obsolete. The only thing that will pillage the roads is cavalry, so you'll have to make repairs. The infantry units will end their turns on the roads, and then your crossbowmen and pikemen will kill them before they get their next turn.

2. Rush defensive units, spears and crossbow, and put them in 4 man groups along the border. Their role is just to absorb enemy attacks. My question - how do I get the enemy to attack ME, rather than walk right by me on the way to the city?

They'll go to the city if you let them. The reason you put out the road is so that your units can attack them once they're in your territory, but before they get to the city. A road will let a single unit cover 5 squares of border. You don't get the best success rates, but it's a good way to stretch a minimum defending force. You just need to keep it reinforced periodically. And again, the 4 man groups will probably just cover you. 6 man groups would definitely cover things. Note that the middle doesn't seem to get attacked a lot, so you may not need to defend it.

Oh, and go 100% research until you get crossbowmen, you want to start pumping out your defense ASAP.

3. Declare war as soon as defensive force is finished, take Vilcas right away, then just wait it out until his force is depleted.

I went with minimum offense, but you don't need to do this, in fact, I recommend against it. He won't deplete his army on you. He sends very minimal forces, and replaces them quickly enough to keep them coming. What you want to do is defend your territory while getting rid of his capacity to keep producing military units. Before long, you should start outproducing and overwhelming him. All of your city raider units can be sent on the offense. Just make sure you've got a strong enough defense force to handle things at home.

4. Go on the offense, take cities.

Yep. The sooner you bring him down, the less trouble he'll cause you.

Anything to add to this?

Don't bother with handling sickness and angryness, with the exception of trading with Cyrus for resources. Either ignore it, or whip some new military units. You need to stay competitive with HC, you can't fall behind in military development at all.

Edit: Oh, and stop producing that navy. He doesn't have any naval power, you don't need it. You're fighting a land war.