Attn: Military Geniuses

[podraza]

Norseman,

1. Were you able to win? Or get to a point where victory was all but assured? Or did you not go far enough to know?

2. Did it look like I had made any serious errors up to this point? As you could probably tell, I had attacked and destroyed Alexander all by myself and had taken Montezuma's capital while HC beat up on him elsewhere. I thought that I was playing a great game until I turned my sights on HC and saw how absurdly strong he had somehow become. Maybe I built too many preatorians and not enough spears/ax. I could have the 4 man defense teams ready right now if I had balanced that out a bit better.

I also stretched myself quite thin, although I'm not sure if it was an error to do so. I felt like I need to take Alex completely out when I had the chance, so I ended up weighing myself down with 5 of his cities (and 2 of my own) during the BC period. My units went on strike and I was forced to go to war with Monty for pillage money, even after rearranging my own tiles to maximize commerce.

 

[Norseman2]

Norseman,

1. Were you able to win? Or get to a point where victory was all but assured? Or did you not go far enough to know?

I played for about 10 turns. I maintained a tie because I wanted to make sure that if he sent anything huge my way I'd be able to handle it. He didn't, so I'm fairly sure if you used the offensive power you have, you'd be able to wipe him out.

2. Did it look like I had made any serious errors up to this point?

I can't tell. I didn't look at the log. I just looked at what the situation was and how to go from there.

I also stretched myself quite thin, although I'm not sure if it was an error to do so. I felt like I need to take Alex completely out when I had the chance, so I ended up weighing myself down with 5 of his cities (and 2 of my own) during the BC period. My units went on strike and I was forced to go to war with Monty for pillage money, even after rearranging my own tiles to maximize commerce.

Provided you hurry along with your military, overstretching is not a problem. In a long game, you need the tech. If you're going to pull a sudden military victory, you need the production.

 

[podraza]

Norse (and anyone else interested),

Check it out. I did like you said and put a hurt on HC. I razed the city near Monty, I'll let him have that space (for now). I took that one city HC has separating the former Aztec capital from the rest of my empire, consolidating my territory. And to boot, I took one of his cities on his Persian border. I used groups of units to defend just like you prescribed, although honestly I didn't face much from him. Just a couple of units here and there.

Now...

He is willing to make peace and to give me something for it. He'll give me one tech, a few gold per turn and peace. I see 3 options

1. Continue the offensive, try to take 1 or 2 more cities, make peace.

2. Make peace, regroup for ten turns, attack him again.

3. Make peace, finish off Montezuma, deal with HC later.

Please advise.

 

[cabert]

do you need the tech he offers?
do you fear monty attacking you soon?

If you have a "yes" on any of these 2 questions, sue for peace and kill monty.

If you are safe from monty (like he is in another war somewhere) and HC offers a useless tech, check if you have the steam to go on or not.
Garrison troops for captured cities?
Assault troops for the next ones?
If you have all this finish HC. If you don't, get them and finish HC . Don't sue for peace. Just heal and protect your new cities. If you expand their culture (a Great artist is good there), you'll have an easier/faster fight afterwards. You can even sign a ceasefire if it's useful and trade with HC

 

[Norseman2]

HC still has a more powerful military than you do, he still is putting out more production than you are, and he's getting way too far along with his techs. It's too early to stop the attack. He's still too much of a threat. If you stop now, you won't have accomplished your original goal of making sure that he doesn't overpower you. Not to mention you still need to consider winning the game, and that requires putting all the competition in no position to argue. there's also the issue of your massive military surplus at the moment, which is costing you 43 gold per turn, and limiting your scientific development. You've got an army, and the war weariness isn't excessive, so you may as well use it.

It looks like HC's main production centers are Machu Pichu and Ollaytantabo. Capture or raze those and then try to get some techs when he surrenders, and you'll have satisfied your original goal. You already took his source of elephants, but his capital is sitting on an iron mine. Libyan and the city next to it are his source of horses, aside from Ollaytantabo. If you get all of those, he'll be permanently crippled, and you can be fairly certain he'll never overpower you again.

Bear in mind that along with massive empire growth and military development, your science production is going to plummet. To keep from falling behind, you're going to need to cripple or eliminate Cyrus almost immediately after you make peace with HC. Since Cyrus will be the last actual threat you face, you may as well go all the way with him, and then come back to Monty and HC and declare victory.

 

[Kaleb]

I'll try and look at this in more depth when I get the chance but for now one useful trick you can try is to throw a few thorns in his side...

take a couple of defensive units and give them either Guerilla II or Woodsman II promotions and send them deep inside enemy terrain.

make sure you send them on the best route where they have as much of the appropriate terrain to roam through - especially where the enemy has hills. may be worth dropping a couple of these pests off by boat if you are able.

HC will then have 2 options:

1) attack your intruders. with their defensive bonusses they should be able to take down at least a couple of enemy units before they go down. good for a war of attrition!

2) more likely, the AI won't want to attack units with such bonusses so they will probably be free to roam and rampage for a while. this has the following benefits:

with 2 movement they will be able to move and pillage. so you should be able to cut off vital road connections through slow terrain (especially good for slowing down cavalry!) AND hills at this stage of the game often equals MINES! so the cities surronded by hills will probably also be where his main centres of production are.

furthermore, whilst you have units lurking around he won't want to have any workers in the vicinity so you'll also be slowing down his tile improvement.

oh, and you also pick up a bit of money in the process.

just be careful if you want to 'hop' to another batch of safe terrain. e.g. moving onto a plains in between 2 sets of hills, as this is where you will likely be attacked by a vengeful cavalry unit!

if your lucky you may also come across undefended COPPER or IRON resources, mwuahahaha

 

[podraza]

Thanks guys for more great information.

Norse, about Cyrus. He is already ahead of me in tech. But is he really in a position to run away with the game, given what will be my much larger land mass? Even with his emperor bonuses, shouldn't I be able to catch up? Alternatively, shouldn't I be able to secure a domination win without ever touching Cyrus?

My plan was to switch to Cyrus' religion as soon as I get the opportunity. I didn't check to see if the recently taken border city has Hinduism in it yet, but if it does, I will switch over right away. I wanted to buddy up to Cyrus just to be sure he doesn't attack me, and then finish off HC and Monty and win via domination.

 

[Norseman2]

Norse, about Cyrus. He is already ahead of me in tech. But is he really in a position to run away with the game, given what will be my much larger land mass? Even with his emperor bonuses, shouldn't I be able to catch up?

You won't be able to take on tanks with praetorians. A technological advantage in the long run is a military advantage in the long run, and he has the technological advantage in the long run. His empire is much smaller, and he has much less military power, so his science rate can be higher. It's still large enough that he can get plenty of scientific production. Once he starts getting way ahead of you, you'll be at a disadvantage. What you have is production, and you need to turn that to your advantage. What you produce now won't help you in the long run unless you cause lasting and crippling damage. That's where you can beat Cyrus.

Alternatively, shouldn't I be able to secure a domination win without ever touching Cyrus?

You'd need to more than double your current land area. If you captured all of HC's and Monty's cities and started pumping culture, you could probably do that.

My plan was to switch to Cyrus' religion as soon as I get the opportunity. I didn't check to see if the recently taken border city has Hinduism in it yet, but if it does, I will switch over right away. I wanted to buddy up to Cyrus just to be sure he doesn't attack me, and then finish off HC and Monty and win via domination.

That would work.

 

[podraza]

Thank you Norse and everybody else who contributed ideas towards this game. I have just won it, Domination Victory, year 1480. I ended up wiping out Monty completely and leaving HC with only one city, a city that counted towards my 68% I believe, since HC ultimately became my vassal.

Things I learned in this Emperor experience:

1. How to defend territory. I never really knew how to do this before. I used to just keep guys holed up in the cities and would sometimes bring them out if need be. But the idea of lining the border with roads, and then putting "teams" of anti-horse/anti-melee units out on the roads to cover the tiles to their left and their right was something new to me. I love it. It worked like a charm too. I think the whole game I suffered exactly 1 pillaged tile. And certainly no captured cities.

2. One useful feature of having a vassal state. One of HC's towns bordering Cyrus had built up quite a bit of culture for itself (2 expansions). If I had taken this city, then Cyrus' culture would have probably swallowed up the territory. So I did not take it and instead allowed HC to keep it and then made him my vassal. Now I get credit for his culture. This seems particularly useful along borders, but probably not quite as useful in other territory.

Now I've won on emperor. HOORAY FOR ME!

 

[cabert]

congrats on a nice win

 

[scipian]

First, I'll say that I'm not the best strategist. I'm mostly a builder and then I use my ultimate cities to mass-produce armies and just toss them at the enemy WWI style. But I played your game some and what I did was:

Wipe out Montezuma. Just needed 2 chariots for one city and 3-4 catapults plus 3-4 Praetorians. Then I left one unit in every city and sent the rest to defeat Cyrus. Because I played roughly and had the numerical superiority needed, I bulldozed VERY quickly through him albeit with large casualties. Then I built up my cities and industrialized and by the time i'd rushed to cavalry I easily overwhelmed the Incans.

BTW- Congrats on the win. Also it was quite fun playing your game because I'm a builder and I need a harsh stimulus to be a war-monger. If I start a game and have no attachment to my cities, it's much easier to release the barbarian within.

Addition: I actually did fight a limited war with the Incans much earlier than cavalry but it was a limited war. I just defended my borders and sent in huge numbers of raiders and devestated his army. Sure, I lost most of them but I cut his tech lead way back.

 

[podraza]

First, I'll say that I'm not the best strategist. I'm mostly a builder and then I use my ultimate cities to mass-produce armies and just toss them at the enemy WWI style. But I played your game some and what I did was:

Wipe out Montezuma. Just needed 2 chariots for one city and 3-4 catapults plus 3-4 Praetorians. Then I left one unit in every city and sent the rest to defeat Cyrus. Because I played roughly and had the numerical superiority needed, I bulldozed VERY quickly through him albeit with large casualties. Then I built up my cities and industrialized and by the time i'd rushed to cavalry I easily overwhelmed the Incans.

BTW- Congrats on the win. Also it was quite fun playing your game because I'm a builder and I need a harsh stimulus to be a war-monger. If I start a game and have no attachment to my cities, it's much easier to release the barbarian within.

Addition: I actually did fight a limited war with the Incans much earlier than cavalry but it was a limited war. I just defended my borders and sent in huge numbers of raiders and devestated his army. Sure, I lost most of them but I cut his tech lead way back.

Glad I could help you learn to unleash the barbarian within.

As far as I can tell, it is an absolute must on these higher levels. I posted this file having already attacked and completely wiped out Alexander. Had I not done that, I would have had 3 cities at the most and HC would have ran away with the tech lead at a stupidly high rate. And even having killed Alexander, it still wasn't enough.

In fact, although I'm sure some expert players would disagree, I can't see how it is possible to win at all unless you are the largest Civ. So you spend the first part of the game becoming the largest through war and the second part deciding how to win from there. Maybe space, maybe diplomacy, maybe domination. All are possible, but only after a lot of axmen and archers have died.