Autocracy Either Needs Buff or Remake

[i kimchi u]

Hi folks,

After playing BNW with sleepless nights, I feel that Autocracy is currently the least favored and less likely to be chosen among other 2 ideologies: Freedom & Order.

Although I cannot say Autocracy is weak just because the AIs rarely pick, perhaps the reason why Autocracy isn't favored equally among the AIs is that they do not find such ideology very "attractive" or "effective", compared to other ideologies. Correct me if I'm wrong -- most of my games AIs definitely preferred Order>Freedom>Autocracy -- even warmongers like Monty and Oda preferred Order without the tourism/happiness penalty.

Autocracy, in my opinion, should obviously be focused on war -- its ideology should give extra benefit for those who prefer "warmongering". Therefore, its bonuses are to focus on gaining/using military strength and defending outside influence/culture as much as possible.

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Here are some thoughts & ideas about buffing/reworking Autocracy:

•Level 1

◦United Front: Militaristic City-States grant units twice as often when you are at war with a common foe.

First, not all City-States are militaristic -- and even if they are, it takes at least 30 turns to give you a unit. Instead of gifting 2 units in every 30 turns, reducing the number of turns (ex: 10) to give you a gift can be much more effective in times of war.

◦Futurism: +100 Tourism with all known civs when a Great Writer, Artist or Musician is born.

Instead of inluencing with tourism, I think this tenet would be more useful if it were to "defend against enemy tourism", such as +200 Culture if GW/GA/GM is born.


◦Industrial Espionage: Spies steal technologies at twice the normal rate.

Stealing technologies twice faster isn't effective if the spies are still going to get caught easily. How about spies are not likely to get caught easily?


•Level 3

◦Cult of Personality: +50% Tourism to civilizations fighting a common enemy.

Again, instead of influencing with tourism, how about defending against enemy tourism?
(Receives 50% less tourism to civilizations that are fighting against.)

◦Clausewitz's Legacy: Receive a 25% attack bonus to all Military Units for the first 50 turns after this policy is adopted.

I personally think this tenet needs a buff. I can't deny that a 25% attack bonus isn't great, but it only lasts for first 50 turns -- 50 turns! Are you seriously going to adopt three lvl1 policies & two lvl2 policies just for 50 turns?

Instead of giving attack bonus for 'limited' number of turns, how about giving attack bonus for certain period and that can be renewable?
(ex: 20% attack bonus for 30 turns if a war breaks out)

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These are just some of my thoughts/opinions about making Autocracy tenets more interesting. But how about you guys? Do you think Autocracy is overpowered/underpowered? Should it need a buff or remake? What are your opinions?

 

[Martinus]

I'm sorry but your ideas effectively remove any bonuses to winning a cultural victory - which is supposed to be one of Autocracy specialties.

 

[Evie94]

Autocracy certainly needs a buff. right now there is no good reason to pick it, as Order and Freedom are significantly better for every VC, with the possible exception of Domination

 

[simonthesinner]

I found that gunboat diplomacy was super awesome, there was some nice happiness boost for warmongers, especially the +3 courthouse. Most other were pretty useless.

 

[pwnerer]

Autocracy Tier 1 is REALLY really REALLY REALLLLAY REALLLY REAAAAALY bad. I mean scrape it off the bottom of your shoe bad.

Tier 2 is fantastic, the bees-knees, hitlers delight, and virtual utopia of slaughter and mayhem.

But then you are back to tier 1 which is like looking directly into the sun while hitting your testicles with a hammer. And setting yourself on fire. With cancer.

 

[Veneke]

pwnerer I think sums up Autocracies level one and two tenets is a very eloquent manner.

Fortified Borders is the only semi-decent level one tenet and, frankly, when you're going for Domination you're less likely to build defensive structures than units so it doesn't even mesh well with one of the supposed preferred victory conditions. To be honest, they should just scrap the entire first tier and come up with something different entirely.


Aside from the devs making Autocracy the weakest of the three options by a good margin, again, what I find really irritating is that they're absolutely horrific at anything other than Domination. They're meant to be good at Culture and Diplomacy as well yet are clearly seriously underpowered in both regards. Gunship diplomacy is the only saving grace for the latter and pales in comparison to Treaty Organization/Arsenal of Democracy while for the former their Cult of Personality is shockingly awful in comparison to Freedom (which once again is the best at everything) and doesn't even approach Order's Cultural Revolution and Proletariat picks.

It wasn't enough to make Autocracy useless, they went and made it so that it can only do one thing and it's not so much better at that than everyone else that such a narrow approach would warrant.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Autocracy was entirely focused no war in the base game, that's why I only adopted it once or twice. It' much better now, but it's still a rather poor choice compared to Freedom and Order. My biggest problem with it now is that it has some very weak and situational bonuses that probably won't be helpful. It looks to me very much like the ideology of last resort: It can be helpful if you're far behind since it gives the largest potential happines boost of all ideologies, Futurism only significantly increases your tourism if you have as few GWAMs as possible before you adopt it and Gunboat Diplomacy allows you to gain influence with CS on the cheap. If you are already doing well in the culture game and have a couple of CS allies you should pick another ideology, unless you're planning a neverending war.

I'm sorry but your ideas effectively remove any bonuses to winning a cultural victory - which is supposed to be one of Autocracy specialties.

There are only two bonuses towards a culture victory and they're both pretty weak.
Futurism, which as I said is only effective if you've neglected your culture/tourism so much that most of your GWAMs will be generated durng or after the industrial era, and Cult of Personality which is essentially useless because it requires you to fight a war on the side of your greatest cultural rivals, which is a rather unlikely scenario.
In reality Gunboat Diplomacy is the only Autocracy tenet that directly helps with a victory other than Domination.

 

[Deggial]

And if you go for Domination and already started to conquer one or the other city, your science rate goes down quite significantly due to the new citycount modifier. Which means that others will most likely chose their ideology first.
In addition to that, they will most likely have higher tourism, as they did built more cultural wonders than you which are - beside the three guilds - the only source of great cultural people.

In consequence you may chose Autocracy to help your conquest - only to find yourself with a massive happiness hit the very second after you adopted the ideology, forcing you to change it into... you guessed it: Order.

--

This happend at least to me in my last game. Is this a common experience or was I just unlucky? Annoyed I was for sure...

 

[i kimchi u]

In addition to that, they will most likely have higher tourism, as they did built more cultural wonders than you which are - beside the three guilds - the only source of great cultural people.

This. Most "warmongers" won't really priortize wonders as much as Egypt/Ethiopia; they are most likely to succumb by cultural influences in later games.

 

[i kimchi u]

I'm sorry but your ideas effectively remove any bonuses to winning a cultural victory - which is supposed to be one of Autocracy specialties.

I'm not saying that autocracy should completely remove its cultural specialities-- but I would rather change it to something more practical.

Most importantly,"autocratic" nations won't priortize in culture wonders but priortize army and world domination. Let me ask you though, if you are going for cultural victory, why would you even bother choose autocracy at first? There are other better cultural traits on Order/Freedom.

Rather than getting 'few' bonus tourism, wouldn't it be better to have more extra military-related tenets for the domination, or something that defends against the enemy influence? Like I said, these are just my thoughts.

 

[Martinus]

I'm not saying that autocracy should completely remove its cultural specialities-- but I would rather change it to something practical.

Most importantly,"autocratic" nations won't priortize in culture wonders but priortize army and world domination. Let me ask you though, if you are going for cultural victory, why would you even bother choose autocracy at first? There are other better cultural traits on Order/Freedom.

Rather than getting 'few' bonus tourism, wouldn't it be better to have more extra military-related tenets for the domination, or something that defends against the enemy influence? Like I said, these are just my thoughts.

But that's not the design idea behind Autocracy. Each ideology is supposed to be good with 3 different victories. For Autocracy the developers chose Diplomacy, Domination and Culture (as each ideology is supposed to be good with Culture victory). So your approach is completely wrong, as it essentially negates the design concept - if you say "why would you choose Autocracy when going for cultural victory", this just means that (contrary to the design), Autocracy is weaker in it than Order and Freedom (which I agree with but this is not a WAD). So the idea is not to remove those bonuses, but to change them into something useful for cultural victory.

This could include something like boosting your tourism or GWAM generation from every military victory, or perhaps a tenet called "Degenerate Art", which actually gives extra tourism to great works created by your civilization (as opposed to those of other civilizations).

 

[Securion]

I was surprised at how powerful the Autocracy tree is. I really like it.

 

[kaspergm]

I don't agree that Autocracy is bad, I'm doing a Domination Assyria, and Autocracy is pretty amazing. Sure, there are some bad policies, but I think the majority are fine. Here is my opinion on them.

Good tenets:
Level 1:
- Elite Forces (25 % extra damage from wounded units): Not great, but ok for a level 1 tenet.
- Fortified Borders (+1 Happiness from defensive buildings): Not great, but ok for a level 1 tenet. Defensive buildings don't cost upkeep, so essentially you get some free happiness here.
- United Front (extra military units from CS): Very situational, but in a game with many militaristic city-states, it's ok. Good to couple with Gunboat Diplomacy.
- Mobilization: Decent, although I feel with all the production bonuses I normally don't need to rush buy units, but depending on your situation, this might not be the case.
Level 2:
- Militarism (+2 Happiness from military buildings): Amazing! Happiness galore. Spam those Barracks!
- Nationalism (-33 % unit upkeep): Great! Saves you A LOT of Gold.
- Total War (+15 % production, 15 XP): Very good. Extra production is nice, the free XP is cool. Let's your units start at level 3 with all Military buildings, which you want for the +6 Happiness.
- Lightning Warfare (+1 mov, ignore ZoC, +3 mov to generals): Looks great. Haven't reached Combustion in my game yet, so don't know for sure.
- Police State (+3 Happiness from Courthouse, build in half time): Decent. I don't use this very much, I normally just puppet. But could see this one work if you have made early war and annexed.
- Third alternative (+100 % strategic resources, +5 food, +5 science in capital): Looks situational but good, can probably save you some trouble if you find yourself running short on Aluminum, Oil or Uranium.
Level 3:
- Gunship Diplomacy (+6 influence per turn with CS you can bully): Amazing! Spam units and just part them all over the map and watch all City States become your allies. Great synergy with several other policies.
- Clauswitz Legacy (+25 % attack for 50 turns): Good. Take this if and when you're facing a tough opponent. You might not need it, but extra attack can't hurt. 50 turns is plenty of time in late game!

Bad tenets:
Level 1:
- Industrial Espionage (double tech steal rate): Horrible. Completely useless with the way tech stealing is designed.
- Universal Healthcare (+1 happiness from national wonders): Decent at best. Comes short compared to many other happiness tennets in this tree. I guess if you're really desperate for happiness?
- Futurism (+100 tourism when a GArt/GWri/GMu spawns): Hmm ... seems too little so late in the game.
Level 2:
None!
Level 3:
- Cult of Personality (+50 % tourism towards a civ who's in a joint war with you): Horrible. Just seems WAY too situational to ever be of any major importance.


Overall, I feel Autocracy is actually a very solid tree. A lot of the level 1 tenets are a bit average, though, and all the level 2 tenets are great, so there could perhaps be done some tweaking there. I feel the whole Autocracy + Diplomatic victory feels very forced and like something that's not going to work in reality.

 

[Martinus]

The problem right now is that, unlike other ideologies, Autocracy does not deliver on "each ideology is good for three types of victories".

It is very good for Domination, somewhat good for Diplomacy, and for Cultural.

 

[Wuddel]

I also feel that Autocracy is not as strong. However at least in my games the AI takes it all the time. I rarely see freedom. That's why I ended up with it a few times as well.

I got to add though: Prora is probably the strongest of the Ideology wonders.

 

[i kimchi u]

This could include something like boosting your tourism or GWAM generation from every military victory, or perhaps a tenet called "Degenerate Art", which actually gives extra tourism to great works created by your civilization (as opposed to those of other civilizations).

I really like this idea too, that could give some strength on cultural victory, with some war-related themes.

 

[mistermoo33]

I don't agree that Autocracy is bad, I'm doing a Domination Assyria, and Autocracy is pretty amazing. Sure, there are some bad policies, but I think the majority are fine. Here is my opinion on them.

Good tenets:
Level 1:
- Elite Forces (25 % extra damage from wounded units): Not great, but ok for a level 1 tenet.
- Fortified Borders (+1 Happiness from defensive buildings): Not great, but ok for a level 1 tenet. Defensive buildings don't cost upkeep, so essentially you get some free happiness here.
- United Front (extra military units from CS): Very situational, but in a game with many militaristic city-states, it's ok. Good to couple with Gunboat Diplomacy.
- Mobilization: Decent, although I feel with all the production bonuses I normally don't need to rush buy units, but depending on your situation, this might not be the case.
Level 2:
- Militarism (+2 Happiness from military buildings): Amazing! Happiness galore. Spam those Barracks!
- Nationalism (-33 % unit upkeep): Great! Saves you A LOT of Gold.
- Total War (+15 % production, 15 XP): Very good. Extra production is nice, the free XP is cool. Let's your units start at level 3 with all Military buildings, which you want for the +6 Happiness.
- Lightning Warfare (+1 mov, ignore ZoC, +3 mov to generals): Looks great. Haven't reached Combustion in my game yet, so don't know for sure.
- Police State (+3 Happiness from Courthouse, build in half time): Decent. I don't use this very much, I normally just puppet. But could see this one work if you have made early war and annexed.
- Third alternative (+100 % strategic resources, +5 food, +5 science in capital): Looks situational but good, can probably save you some trouble if you find yourself running short on Aluminum, Oil or Uranium.
Level 3:
- Gunship Diplomacy (+6 influence per turn with CS you can bully): Amazing! Spam units and just part them all over the map and watch all City States become your allies. Great synergy with several other policies.
- Clauswitz Legacy (+25 % attack for 50 turns): Good. Take this if and when you're facing a tough opponent. You might not need it, but extra attack can't hurt. 50 turns is plenty of time in late game!

Bad tenets:
Level 1:
- Industrial Espionage (double tech steal rate): Horrible. Completely useless with the way tech stealing is designed.
- Universal Healthcare (+1 happiness from national wonders): Decent at best. Comes short compared to many other happiness tennets in this tree. I guess if you're really desperate for happiness?
- Futurism (+100 tourism when a GArt/GWri/GMu spawns): Hmm ... seems too little so late in the game.
Level 2:
None!
Level 3:
- Cult of Personality (+50 % tourism towards a civ who's in a joint war with you): Horrible. Just seems WAY too situational to ever be of any major importance.


Overall, I feel Autocracy is actually a very solid tree. A lot of the level 1 tenets are a bit average, though, and all the level 2 tenets are great, so there could perhaps be done some tweaking there. I feel the whole Autocracy + Diplomatic victory feels very forced and like something that's not going to work in reality.

Good post. I'd say Autocracy is not really "amazing," but what really sells it is the 2 free early adopter policies. The early adopter policies are a fantastic little mechanic. Realistically this tree is only for aggressive players, but I don't think that's a huge issue. Cult of Personality definitely needs a rework, though, as it represents the key policy for those going for a culture victory backed by aggression.

Culture victory actually naturally plays into aggressive styles since you can just go kill the civs you're having trouble becoming influential with. Similarly, taking control of all of a civ's great works can be quite good. Unfortunately CoP is definitely too situational, as you said.

 

[wigwam]

Isn't the idea behind Cult of Personality that Autocracy should pursue a hybrid cultural/military victory? Use military force to crush your Freedom/Order rivals' ability to resist your culture; use Cult of Personality to awe and dominate your Autocratic allies.

 

[CommunistCookie]

While we're at it, Order could definitely stand to be rounded out as well. Autocracy has it worst, but Iron Curtain is absolutely useless for domination and using GEs for spaceship parts isn't even comparable with being able to buy them.

As for Autocracy's Gunship Diplomacy tenet, I've read that it can't even compete with Treaty Organization on higher difficulties because it forces you to over-build your military (costing you gold which could just be used to pay them off...).

As it stands Freedom is pretty much the best at everything it does and not bad at aggression, with guaranteed benefit from all of its level 3 tenets.

 

[Falconiano]

Autocracy is pretty weak. Order needs better endgame tenets too.
Freedom I dunno, the whole thing doesn't inspire me.