Avoiding the production slowdown

[jwk9]

First off, thanks to everyone for all of their tips, tricks, strategies, etc. They're really helpful for a Civ newcomer like myself.

I've started playing on the Noble level recently, and I seem to run into the same issue over and over. About the time that I start to build knights and proceed towards getting gunpowder, my production and research rate slows way down. I usually have a half-decent jump on technology against the computer, but then as soon as I get gunpowder, my research and production seem to take forever.

Is there any way to combat this? My suspicion is that perhaps I need to convert some of my many cottages into workshops to increase production. But, doesn't that detract from the food for the city?

I'd really appreciate any insights on this. I seem to be hitting a wall every time at around year 1600.

jwk9

 

[mice]

If you're concerned about research slowing down then i wouldnt replace those cottages. They generate commerce which can be used for research via the slider. Lots of cottages, slider at 70% for example is a good state to be in.

More info needed on your expansion, number of cities. You might be slowing down because of over expansion. Cities and pop cost a lot to maintain. Can you post a save of your game at about the point where you start to get the slowdown.

 

[50_dollar_bag]

What civics are you running by this time? Try a low upkeep civic.
Try going for the economic techs like banking(banks) or printing press(+1 /village,town) to get your GNP up.
If you have a large amount of cities make sure they have courthouses to reduce maintenance.
Specialize your cities for commerce or production esp. your Heroic Epic city don't worry about cottages in its BFC use watermills and mines(and farms if necessary)

 

[jwk9]

Thanks for the tips.

Mice, I think you might be onto something regarding overexpansion. Usually, when the slowdown starts, I've been in an extended battle with one of my neighbors in an effort to clear them off of my continent or out of my space. I usually raze cities, only to see the enemy rebuild it. So, I sometimes take cities over and own them.

Still, I try to stay on the 60% guideline that's been posted on this board. I try to keep research at 60%. Usually, I get hit with both a slowdown in research and a slowdown in production. It just hurts.

Unfortunately, I don't have a saved game that I can share with you. I usually save over the Quicksave game when I play, and right now, I've got an early stage game going. However, I can already feel the slowdown coming.

jwk9

 

[Mind_worm]

First off, thanks to everyone for all of their tips, tricks, strategies, etc. They're really helpful for a Civ newcomer like myself.

I've started playing on the Noble level recently, and I seem to run into the same issue over and over. About the time that I start to build knights and proceed towards getting gunpowder, my production and research rate slows way down. I usually have a half-decent jump on technology against the computer, but then as soon as I get gunpowder, my research and production seem to take forever.

Is there any way to combat this? My suspicion is that perhaps I need to convert some of my many cottages into workshops to increase production. But, doesn't that detract from the food for the city?

I'd really appreciate any insights on this. I seem to be hitting a wall every time at around year 1600.

jwk9

tech slowdown is normal, but I dont think ive ever heard of aproduction slowdown?? unless war weariness is hitting you and you have too much unhappiness to work mines?

 

[UncleJJ]

What buildings are you constructing in your main cities? If you have built a library, university and some monastries in the main cities your research will be as good as it can be at this stage. You need some academies in your best cities and to build Oxford University in your Science City to research at a decent rate in the Renaissance. Similarly with gold if you have plenty of markets, grocers and banks the gold income will be multiplied and you can then run the research slider at a higher %. Cottages need time to develop into towns and so if you have just expanded and only put them in recently they will be giving a poor return for some time.

The main problem with a pure cottage approach is the lack of production capability so mixing in some farms and watermills instead of all cottages will increase food and hammer production. Building a forge and using slavery to whip in buildings and units will increase production. Having a few farms (if the city is low on food) will allow rapid recovery from using the whip and also allow some hills or workshops to be worked for more hammers.

 

[50_dollar_bag]

tech slowdown is normal, but I dont think ive ever heard of aproduction slowdown?? unless war weariness is hitting you and you have too much unhappiness to work mines?

That's right.
JWK9 are you sure you're not overlooking the fact that the more advanced the unit is the more production required to build it.

 

[bassist2119]

1.) Upon getting knights, your next stop is banking - pays for more knights and higher civic/maintainance costs and usually allows for upping the tech slider a notch. (By this time, double check that every core city has a courthouse, too)
2.) Paper is the gateway to springboarding ahead.
a.)leads to Printing Press - immediate boost to economy/research. If you're the first one to get it, you've basically added the Financial trait until others do.
b.)Moderate increase with PP leads to massive research gains with Education.
c.) Education leads to several game-breakers - especially if you're the first to Liberalism and Corporation
d.)PP also leads to Rep Parts, which will give a slight boost to production.
3.) An approach that I'm becoming dependant on - name a religion to be state, and acquire Spiral Minaret and U. of Sankore. Then make sure every city has a temple and monastary - both cheap buildings whose net effect is now, get this: +3 culture, +1 happy, +10% science, +4 coins and +4 beakers. Base 4 beakers and 4 coins are further multipled through normal channels.

 

[jwk9]

All:

Thanks for the tips. I understand that later units will take more to build, but I still think my production is slower than it should be for things like riflemen, etc.

Overall, it sounds like I need to build more economy-friendly buildings like courthouses and banks. That leads me to these other dilemmas that I often face:

1. If I'm in the middle of a fight with some other civ, I keep my fast-producing cities focused on churning out military units. It's tough to take them "off line" to build improvements like courthouses. Of course, I try to shift the burden to other cities temporarily, but I still want to keep the war machine humming.

2. Someone asked what I'm building in my cities. To the extent that I can, I try to specialize my cities, but I often find that a lot of my cities end up looking very similar. For example, I end up building aqueducts, markets, banks, granaries, and theaters in every city just to keep them productive. It seems that only a limited number of buildings like universities, libraries, and barracks are excluded from different cities. If I have a city that is production focused, should I even bother with basic improvements like aqueducts?

3. In some cases, I have cities that are not productive at all. It takes them over 20 turns to build anything at all regardless of what the item is or what the technology is. In these cases, I've experimented with those cities and had them focused on "building" research. Does choosing to build research in a city do anything at all, or am I just better off trying to increase research through use of the slider (percentage of wealth)?

 

[theos]

My thoughts on the above...

1. If I'm in the middle of a fight with some other civ, I keep my fast-producing cities focused on churning out military units. It's tough to take them "off line" to build improvements like courthouses. Of course, I try to shift the burden to other cities temporarily, but I still want to keep the war machine humming.

Win the war first. Only once you know you have enough units to win the war switch to improvements. Cities focused on military need fewer improvements anyway (barracks, forge).

2. Someone asked what I'm building in my cities. To the extent that I can, I try to specialize my cities, but I often find that a lot of my cities end up looking very similar. For example, I end up building aqueducts, markets, banks, granaries, and theaters in every city just to keep them productive. It seems that only a limited number of buildings like universities, libraries, and barracks are excluded from different cities. If I have a city that is production focused, should I even bother with basic improvements like aqueducts?

Aqueducts are not a basic improvement; they are a luxury that few cities need - happiness is more often the limit to city growth than health (particularly since health is a soft limit). Similarly granaries are rarely beneficial for their health bonus and are only needed in cities that can take advantage of their increased growth (e.g. slavery). Markets and banks aren't needed in military cities, but in times of peace it's probably worth getting them. Theatres are often less useful than a temple (or equally useful but more expensive). In other words, while all these buildings are nice to have, they should be a low priority for most cities.

3. In some cases, I have cities that are not productive at all. It takes them over 20 turns to build anything at all regardless of what the item is or what the technology is. In these cases, I've experimented with those cities and had them focused on "building" research. Does choosing to build research in a city do anything at all, or am I just better off trying to increase research through use of the slider (percentage of wealth)?

Building research converts hammers to beakers at a very unfavourable exchange rate. In a low production city this will probably earn you 1 additional beaker. Since it's a low production city, it should have a lot of commerce. Much more beneficial would be to build a library and when it finally completes you'll more than make up for those lost beakers.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

3. In some cases, I have cities that are not productive at all. It takes them over 20 turns to build anything at all regardless of what the item is or what the technology is. In these cases, I've experimented with those cities and had them focused on "building" research.

Well, if they aren't building anything quickly, they aren't going to be building research quickly either.

I'd question why you've got cities like this, though. Are you keeping cities that you should raze? Settling in poor locations? Refusing to retool your improvements to match your current needs? Foregoing the whip?

 

[jwk9]

VoiceOfUnreason:

I've never been able to figure out why I've got these useless cities. Usually, they're coastal cities. Even after placing farms, workshops, etc. around them, they still take over 20 turns to do anything.

The population is usually fairly happy, so I tend not use the whip.

So, if I'm reading people's advice correctly, I guess I'm overbuilding in my production-focused cities. It sounds like the only improvements worth having are maybe a barracks for the military and a courthouse for keeping costs down...

Thanks for the tips.

 

[theos]

I've never been able to figure out why I've got these useless cities. Usually, they're coastal cities. Even after placing farms, workshops, etc. around them, they still take over 20 turns to do anything.

The population is usually fairly happy, so I tend not use the whip.

Fishing villages are cities working mostly coastal tiles and maybe a couple of land tiles. They can generate a healthy amount of commerce and so aren't useless to your empire. They need a lighthouse and a library - whip them out if necessary; don't spare the whip just because the city's happy. Any other buildings are a luxury (a courthouse would be my next choice).

 

[cabert]

Fishing villages are cities working mostly coastal tiles and maybe a couple of land tiles. They can generate a healthy amount of commerce and so aren't useless to your empire. They need a lighthouse and a library - whip them out if necessary; don't spare the whip just because the city's happy. Any other buildings are a luxury (a courthouse would be my next choice).

if you're going to whip, start with a granary!

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

The population is usually fairly happy, so I tend not use the whip.

You might need to get over that. The whip is how you convert surplus food to a granary, which will improve your growth rate and the return that you get on whipping further population.

 

[UncleJJ]

A prime fishing village with say 2 fish needs a granary and forge to make the most of its slaves as well as a lighthouse. If you run OR, each pop you whip will be worth 45 hammers for buildings and 37 for units, missionaries, settlers etc. In the early middle ages they are some of the most productive cities especially if you keep the pop low by regular whipping.

You are sort of right to say they don't need many buildings since without Financial or the Collossus they won't produce a lot of commerce from the coastal tiles (2 food and 2 commerce is Ok but not great) and most of the early buildings multiply commerce and they don't really need religious buildings.

Of course the alternative use for a fishing village like that is as a GP farm and it is a great place to make a couple of early (and hence low GPP cost) GS from a library.

 

[Corporal Kindel]

First off, thanks to everyone for all of their tips, tricks, strategies, etc. They're really helpful for a Civ newcomer like myself.

I've started playing on the Noble level recently, and I seem to run into the same issue over and over. About the time that I start to build knights and proceed towards getting gunpowder, my production and research rate slows way down. I usually have a half-decent jump on technology against the computer, but then as soon as I get gunpowder, my research and production seem to take forever.

Is there any way to combat this? My suspicion is that perhaps I need to convert some of my many cottages into workshops to increase production. But, doesn't that detract from the food for the city?

I'd really appreciate any insights on this. I seem to be hitting a wall every time at around year 1600.

jwk9

I noticed, when I started playing Civ IV, the same things you mention. I've noticed over many games that the production & science costs increase dramatically as the game goes on. Early in the game buildings costs less hammers & science (tech) advances cost less beakers. But, as you progress through the game, the cost of everything increases correspondingly. Compare the beaker cost of Metal Casting (450, provides forges) to Assembly Line (2600 provides factories); that's about a 5 times increase in beaker cost between two techs that provide (essentially) the same benefit. Now compare the hammer cost of the buildings these techs provide: forges (120 hammer) and factory (250 hammer), about twice the production (hammer) cost between the two buildings provided.

So I think the slowdown is not so much a slowdown as much as the fact that everything gets more expensive. It's mainly a matter of keeping up with costs. I've noticed that cities with no hills, but 4 or 5 woods (with lumbermills) and forges, factories & coal mines have a pretty impressive hammer output. In fact, in many of my recent games I've been able to max out on all the buildings (researched up to that point) in a couple of my cities. Switching these cities to wealth and or science has achieved some pretty dramatic results (even 30 + gold or beaker output for one single city), since it's the hammers that get converted to wealth or science.

I think if your having a slowdown you need to focus on building Libraries & Universities (to increase science), and Forges & Factories (to increase hammers). Unlike some players (that I've read on threads), I don't think forges and factories are mutually exclusive to commerce or GP farm type specialized cities because the production buildings ( F & Fs) certainly help you produce the commerce buildings (universities, banks, grocers, etc, essential to commerce specialization) much faster. In fact, I'd go so far to say that I like to have forges & factories in just about every one of my cities, otherwise you have the problem mentioned above, namely, spending half the game trying to build one Confucian temple in one single city. Twenty turns for one of the cheaper buildings is too long. Look into building workshops if you have no hills or woods, these definitely come in handy in some cases. Also, it might be worthwhile to change to Universal Suffrage, where you can spend gold to produce buildings & buy a factory quickly, so as to be able to build everything behind it in the queue much faster .. the faster you can get the building constructed the quicker you get its benefits.

 

[Uiler]

All:

Thanks for the tips. I understand that later units will take more to build, but I still think my production is slower than it should be for things like riflemen, etc.

Overall, it sounds like I need to build more economy-friendly buildings like courthouses and banks. That leads me to these other dilemmas that I often face:

1. If I'm in the middle of a fight with some other civ, I keep my fast-producing cities focused on churning out military units. It's tough to take them "off line" to build improvements like courthouses. Of course, I try to shift the burden to other cities temporarily, but I still want to keep the war machine humming.

For enemy cities you capture, whip those courthouses! And other buildings. The population is unhappy anyway...

 

[eric_]

So, if I'm reading people's advice correctly, I guess I'm overbuilding in my production-focused cities. It sounds like the only improvements worth having are maybe a barracks for the military and a courthouse for keeping costs down...

One thing I had a hard time with was learning to not grow a city more than necessary. If you have a production city with four hills and some copper, don't grow the city any larger than necessary to work those 5 tiles. This will help you avoid the need for theatres, aqueducts, and such in production cities and will reduce the need to take these cities "offline" during times of war or buildup to war.

For instance, as a simple example, if the four hills and the copper mine are on tiles that produce 1 food, you need to farm 5 grassland tiles (3 food per tile) to support them because each worked tile requires 2 food of support. This would give you a citysize of 10. There's no need to grow it more than that.

 

[pigswill]

It might be useful to know how much your empire is costing both in terms of unit costs and city costs (maintenance and civics). I'd be wondering if you've been diverting to commerce tiles instead of production to keep your research at 60 or 70%. It could well be an overexpansion problem; so an easy question would be how many cities do you have when you start to notice the slow down? (I don't think anyone's asked this yet).