Avro Arrow Conspiracy Theorys

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

The germans actually put a jet engine on a Heinkel 111 first, as a jet engine testbed for the He-280 series, so that would be the first ever jet propelled plane.

 

[MadScot]

Originally posted by AoA
The germans actually put a jet engine on a Heinkel 111 first, as a jet engine testbed for the He-280 series, so that would be the first ever jet propelled plane.

That would only be the case if they turned off all the other engines, which I doubt they did, it being a test bed of an experimental engine.

Originally posted by Scrimshaw
I should correct my last post slightly. What intended to say was not that canada has a terrible aerospace industry . We are actually doing fairly well overall but What I really meant is that we are not doing so well for canada itself. Most of what we and most others(including bombardier) build is intended for the united states. We are benefiting them quite nicely but for canada we do fairly little(maybe 10% of what we make stays in this country and that all private sector). So while our companies do quite well, they aren't doing it for us.

Surely it is much better to be selling (not giving, note) hundreds of aircraft in America and repatriating the profits to Canada than to be selling those same aircraft to Air Canada, say, who might not even want them. (Setting aside the whole EDC issue, obviously).
If all the Canadian aerospace industry did was cater to the home market that wouldn't prove much; it's success against other countries' industries on neutral ground, or even their own back yard, that marks a successful industry, IMHO. Of course, making a profit while doing so would be good, too.


Regarding the Phantom Phanatics who appear to reside hereabouts. I don't recall saying it was a bad aircraft, or not a classic aircraft. I quite carefully chose to refer to the classic jet aircraft, and I stand by my claim that there are other more worthy claims to that honour.
The issue as to who would shoot down who is somewhat irrelevant to that argument. Eurofighter would wipe the floor with the Phantom, but no-one is arguing that makes it a more 'classic' aircraft - more caapble, yes, not more classic. Plus there are aircraft likely to be regarded well by history which have no chance of shooting anything down - last time I checked neither SR-71 nor U-2 had any air-to-air capability other than ramming, yet those are clearly 'classics' IMHO.

regarding early British jets:
The Gloster/Whittle E.28/39 flew on 15th May 1941, and was the first non German jet to fly.
The Gloster Meteor first flew on 5 March 1943 and entered service 1944. EE210 was loaned to the USAAC for evaluation in February 1944.
The deHavilland Vampire first flew on 20th September 1943, but did not enter service before the war's end.

For those interested in the CA.15, a four page article on it appeared in Wings of fame, vol 4 - next to an article on TSR2, quite appropriately in some ways.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Not calling the Phantom "classic" is just plain wrong.

It was THE most dominate aircraft of it's era, it ruled the sky wherever it was used, be it Vietnam, over Israel, even over Iran and Iraq during their decade long war.

It remains to this day one of the most sucessful aircraft of the jet age, having far outlived it's contemparies (like the Mig-17, 19, 21, Britain's Electra {which was only an interceptor}, the French Mystere, ect).
It also bested all of those types.
It may have manuved like a brick, if used correctly it was as deadly as they come, and was far more effective a muli-role aircraft then any plane since the Corsair of WWII fame.

It is a true classic, the most recognized example of 1960s and 70s airpower of any type in the world, bar none.
Remember, even Britain and Germany used it over home grown types, Japan loved it, and Israeli pilots thought it the best fighter type in the IDF in 1973 (and they also used Mirage IIIs and their own varient of the mirage, the Kfir).

Phantom and classic go together big time.

 

[MadScot]

Never argue with a phanatic

 

[Hunter]

Well AoA you are indeed a true suporter of the Phantom and while I agree with you on many points. I for the purpose of this thread (an avro arrow disscution) must say that I wish the Canadian government had allowed the US to bye the planes for us. At the very least as was stated earlier they would have been usefull for R&D.

O well it apears that it can be said that the Arrow while perhaps not the worlds greatest it was at least as good as others of its time. Its fate may have been sealled by budget issues and the worlds over confidence in missles. What ever happened its now a mater for folklore as it can not be changed and perhaps it can be said that no matter what stats people present (for or against) patriots and fans alike will always support what they love.

As for myself I now move on to anouther disscusion. I thank you all for your information and look forward to talking to you in diferent threads.



O look a new bunny trail...

 

[Veinot]

I'm a little late, and I dunno if anyone is still reading this but... My take on it is Canada at the time could not develope anything and keep it secret. The Russians, and any one else with an inteligance network, would have most deffinatly managed to steele the design, and to my understanding did, and the americans for reasons of security did not want their enemies getting ahold of a fighter jet as capable or more capable then what they had developed. So yes they did provide pressure, and I am sure good incentives, to have our government cancel the project. On top of that the Conservitive Government by nature would be more inclined to take the cheaper route and buy aircraft that had been already developed as oppose to develope our own. Which does make sence if you ignore National Pride. As to why it was scrapped and completely erased, I don't really know. We went through all that work we should have atleast sold the project to the Americans for development instead of just dumping that time and money away, but I'm certain that the US did get everything learned from that project. I personally tink that if the program was followed through and production of the Airfram stayed in Canada it may have given us a foot up in the Aero Dynamics industry and perhaps you would have seen more great innovations and technologies develope in the feild. However hind sight is 20/20 and we'll never really know.

 

[Sharwood]

I'm a little late, and I dunno if anyone is still reading this but... My take on it is Canada at the time could not develope anything and keep it secret. The Russians, and any one else with an inteligance network, would have most deffinatly managed to steele the design, and to my understanding did, and the americans for reasons of security did not want their enemies getting ahold of a fighter jet as capable or more capable then what they had developed. So yes they did provide pressure, and I am sure good incentives, to have our government cancel the project. On top of that the Conservitive Government by nature would be more inclined to take the cheaper route and buy aircraft that had been already developed as oppose to develope our own. Which does make sence if you ignore National Pride. As to why it was scrapped and completely erased, I don't really know. We went through all that work we should have atleast sold the project to the Americans for development instead of just dumping that time and money away, but I'm certain that the US did get everything learned from that project. I personally tink that if the program was followed through and production of the Airfram stayed in Canada it may have given us a foot up in the Aero Dynamics industry and perhaps you would have seen more great innovations and technologies develope in the feild. However hind sight is 20/20 and we'll never really know.

Of course no-one is still reading it, it's five years old! How the hell'd you even find it?

 

[rilnator]

Better late than never.

 

[Veinot]

lol I didn't knowtice the date untill after I posted, I did a search on avro Arrow and found it, read through it got interested and posted my 2 cents worth. Anyway it couldn't have been to hard to find, 2 ppl posted back within a day of me posting...

 

[Sharwood]

That's because it zooms to the top of the board when you post.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Well you can hardly fault him for bringing it back from Hades; at least he actually contributed instead of saying "I agree" and leaving it at that.

Personally, I think the idea of the Arrow was really amazing. I don't know about the whole "it would still pass for a front-line fighter today" deal or not, but it would've certainly kept the Canadians from needing to develop another fighter for the next 30 years or so; and I'm sure it would have proven to be a reasonable export later on; not many countries outside of Europe were buying weapons in the 50s, but in the 60s-80s, the Middle Eastern, North African, and South Asian nations began buying up a lot of equipment from both the US and Europe. Who knows, maybe wed've been crapping ourselves about the Iranians having Arrows instead of how we were about their F-14As, or shooting down Iraqi Arrows in the Gulf War. The IDF might've picked some up, too, especially with the boastful turning rate and speed maintainance.