Avro Arrow Conspiracy Theorys

Hunter

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Both myself and now stainz have created Avro Arrow jets for Civ3 and recently we began to discus the real jets demise.

Did the government hide something from us? Were they maniplated in some way? Or were they really so stupid as to shut down such a successfull project?

I would like to hear other peoples opinions even if your not Canadian or your theory involves Elvis or aliens. :)

This is a just for fun conspiracy discussion.

Here is the start of mine:
I think that the American government may have not wanted us to develop into a military power. So they applied pressure on our government (whether in the form of threats or bribes) so as to keep the north free of any possible threat. Not that we would ever WANT to threaten our friends and allies but just the same, better safe than sorry.
 
Riiiiiight...

It would take Canada developing a whole lot more than a new fighter jet to be anything resembling a threat to the United States.
 
Originally posted by Switch625
Riiiiiight...

It would take Canada developing a whole lot more than a new fighter jet to be anything resembling a threat to the United States.

:lol: I will grant you that but a nation has to start somewhere.

At the very least this fighter or parts of it would have been worth alot on the international market.

US jets did improve sudenly after this project was cut. It could just be that the developers were imidately hired by US companies however there are rumors that I have heard of one complete jet disapearing. Did it fly south. Hmmm.
 
I don't think the US or anyone else would have had much of a problem with Canada having the Arrow, after all Canada simply bought other (American) planes instead.
So the "fear of a military power" theory doesn't make much sense to me.
The economic idea may have a point, if you look at the "Starfighter" deal in West Germany you can see how single politicians can make such decisions to the advantage of themselves and those who pay them instead to their country and army.
 
Originally posted by gael
Elvis nicked the plans and took of in a UFO.

Although I do like your theory, that dose sound like something those crazy UFO's would do. :lol:

Long live the king baby. ;)
 
Originally posted by Hitro
I don't think the US or anyone else would have had much of a problem with Canada having the Arrow, after all Canada simply bought other (American) planes instead.
So the "fear of a military power" theory doesn't make much sense to me.
The economic idea may have a point, if you look at the "Starfighter" deal in West Germany you can see how single politicians can make such decisions to the advantage of themselves and those who pay them instead to their country and army.

The US has made alot of money over the years selling its hardware to allies and Canada's leaders have never been above doing whatever the US wants. Especialy if there was a nice fat pay check in it for them.

The US may have offered to help us out in anouther way for the Tech we had however it is more likely that some one got paid off.

As for the millitary issue the only way I can see them fearing this is if they looked ahead and saw that we have abundant untapped reasorses. Then realized they were depleating there's so if we needed them for protection we will be more willing to give it rather that sell it.
 
Originally posted by Hunter
The US may have offered to help us out in anouther way for the Tech we had however it is more likely that some one got paid off.

You mean maybe they traded us furs and wine for the tech?

Or maybe they stationed nuclear weapons on Canadian soil and said "don't worry, we've got your backs"?
 
i,m still sticking with my theory of government intervention. i was doing a little more researceh last night and i found this to be most interesting:

**********************************************
The CF-105 Arrow (by François Morin, cf105@sympatico.ca)


In the 1950s, A.V.Roe Canada from Malton Ontario developed a twin-engined, delta winged supersonic interceptor for the RCAF. It was designed to cope with the threat of Soviet nuclear bombers coming over the arctic. From 1953 to 1959, the Avro team designed and built one of the most sophisticated aircraft of the world. It was called the Avro CF-105 Arrow. This aircraft was ahead of its time and could still be a front line fighter in today's high tech warfare world. But unfortunately, the Conservative government of the time, led by John Diefenbaker, cancelled the project and ordered all aircraft to be destroyed.

The Arrow was very sophisticated for its time, and had many hidden features design people of the time didn't realize. First, there were no prototypes. The first aircraft coming off the assembly line was to be able to enter service in the RCAF. Design tests were performed on model jigs and the development tools were designed to be used on all production aircraft. At first, the Arrow was designed to be powered by two Rolls-Royce RB-106 engines, but the development was set back and eventually the project was scrapped. Therefore, the Arrow was nearly completed in development, but it didn't have any engines to power her.

Therefore Orenda Engines, the engine division of Avro, was called to develop an engine to fill the two "46 inch holes" on the Arrow and power her. The engine had to have a thrust rating of 20,000 pounds of thrust each, at dry thrust (optimal thrust with no afterburners). Development of the engine saw a few problems here and there, but development costs didn't exceed $90 million. Pretty affordable, even in the 1950s, for the most powerful turbojet in North America!

On the other side, the airframe itself was also very advanced. It was 80ft long, had a wing span of 50ft and was 21 ft high (at tip of fin). It had a fuel capacity of 2800 gallons of fuel and could fly at mach 1 for 2.5 hours without refuelling. It could also pull 2G at Mach 1.5 without losing an inch of altitude or a knot of speed. The Arrow was also the first aircraft to adopt "fly-by-wire" technology, which is a type of control system where a computer assists the pilot in piloting the plane, making the plane easier to fly and manoeuvre. This system was called the Automated Flight Control System, and kept the aircraft stable in the event of an emergency and could perform automatic landings and take-offs. It also was a kind of airplane "cruise-control" which kept the aircraft on the set course and speed. Fly-by-Wire technology only started to appear in other service planes 20 years later.

It also had a weapons bay roomier than those of a B-29 or Lancaster, two great bombers from WW II. Any type of weapon could be fitted, and this helped in making the Arrow more versatile. Since it could carry a large selection of weapons, it was an interceptor-fighter-strike bomber-anti ship plane. But it was solely designed as an interceptor, but it was able to deliver missiles, bombs, rockets and torpedoes. This made it an air-superiority aircraft, a universal fighter plane. When critics say that the Arrow didn't have many advantages, they don't know the Arrow. It also had a semi-pressurized cabin and a two man crew, in a pilot-navigator configuration. The navigator was there to control the radar and navigation systems (although the pilot also had a navigation console, in the event of solo flights). The Arrow was to be equipped with the Canadian designed and built ASTRA-Sparrow II fire control system for weapon delivery. But this system saw many difficulties and the government cancelled it before the rest of the Arrow, trying to cut costs. The weapon bay doors opened in 0.3 seconds and a missile fired in 2 seconds (doors opened, deployed, cleared and fired).

Surprisingly, the Arrow also had a climate system, to cool the fuel tanks, weapons bay and cool or heat the cockpit. The Arrow was designed for high speeds, which means heat from friction, and flying in arctic air, which means cold dry air around the plane. The windows had a de-fogging system, a climate control for the canopy and automatic de-icing and anti-icing systems at the most critical areas. It also had a very powerful hydraulics system for flight controls and the landing gear. For example, it was measured that the hydraulic pressure applied to the elevators could easily lift 6 large elephants!

The Arrow was revealed to the public on October 4th, 1957. Unfortunately on that date, the Soviets launched Sputnik, the first artificial satellite. This event stole the spotlight from the Arrow, and resulted in changing how people thought of air defence. Since the Iroquois were still in development in 1957, Avro decided to power the first five Arrows with Pratt & Whitney J75 turbojets. These American engines didn't even meet the dry thrust of the PS-13 at full afterburners. These first five Arrows were designated the Mk.(Mark)1, and the all Canadian aircraft with the Iroquois engines would be Mk.2s.

Flight testing started as soon as the engines were installed in Arrow 201, the first aircraft. It made its first flight, without any problems, on March 25 1958. Januz (Jan or Yan, as people called him)"Zura" Zurakowski was the first man to fly the Arrow. He said it flew like a marvel and was easier to fly than many other common aircraft of the time. Except for a few landing gear and damper problems, the flight testing was without a problem, and no-one was killed or injured during flight testing. Only 2 crash landings occurred when the landing gear wasn't properly aligned, but these problems were quickly fixed and bugs were removed. At the same time, the Iroquois was undergoing flight tests.

The Iroquois engine was tested on a static test bed, and when the results were favourable for flight tests, Orenda was loaned a B-47 bomber from the USAF. Canadair built a cowling on the side of the six-engined bomber, to insert the Iroquois. Once the Iroquois was fitted, flight tests commenced immediately. On the first flight, the large USAF bomber lifted up in the air, its six engines screaming and emitting thick black smoke. At 15000 ft, a safe altitude, they lit up the Iroquois. It was so powerful, they had to cut-off the other six engines, or else the plane would have gone supersonic; a velocity it couldn't resist without over-stressing. And they couldn't push the throttle past 60% since it would have shaken the plane to pieces. We must say that even with its sturdiness, the B-47 wasn't designed to hold the most powerful turbojet in the world on it's aft fuselage. The Iroquois delivered 20,000 pounds of thrust without after-burners, and drove the bomber on its own, and at a speed it wasn't designed to exceed. At afterburners, it was recorded that the Iroquois could surpass 26,000 lb of thrust. With two engines, this gave a maximum thrust of over 50,000 pounds to the Arrow, a force not even the fabled Tomcat can reach, and may I tell you, the F-14 is a very powerful plane. The Iroquois was the most powerful turbojet on the North American Continent, and when it was designed, it was the most powerful in the world.

But all this material and technical fame wasn't enough for the Conservatives up in office in Ottawa. And while the program was proceeding at a great pace of development and improvement, the American government came to know about the Arrow. Some USAF key people were invited up to Malton to visit the plant and get briefed on the Arrow. They were very impressed with the program and called the Arrow a "near perfect plane". In Early 1958, Canada signed the NORAD (NORth american Air Defence) treaty, which its goal is to establish norms for the air defence of North America. The NORAD council had both Canadian and American members but Americans had the advantage of having the last word and having more members too.

In the fall of 1958, the Conservative government of John Diefenbaker, elected in early 1957, cancelled the ASTRA-Sparrow II armament system to cut costs. Costs were rising because of lack of communication between the RCAF and the government and lack of organization. The RCAF quickly selected the Hughes Aerospace MG-3 armament system, and got it for nearly nothing because of the advantages of NORAD. This brought cost down drastically, and helped to recover from the financial load the Arrow program was providing. But for Diefenbaker, this was still not enough. It was almost thought that Canada shouldn't spend millions in rebuilding its defence, and build a defence against the most dangerous enemy we ever had. And the worst thing is, is that if the Soviets would have attacked the Americans, they would have wiped us out while they passed. This is why the Arrow was built. So those bombers couldn't cross over the arctic and keep our great country safe. But Dief didn't understand that. And just to make matters worse, at the same time, the CIA and the American "Skunk Works" (Secret division of the USAF to develop spy planes and stealth planes ) were working on the Lockheed U-2 spy plane. This plane wasn't supersonic, but could fly at an altitude of 75,000ft; an altitude very few aircraft could reach in the 50s and 60s. Except the Arrow... Therefore, the CIA saw a threat from Canada, as they do with every country, even their allies. The CIA then informed the administration and the presidency. At the same time, Dief was trying to absorb the cost of the Arrow program, and he tried to sell it to foreign buyers. But that's not the way you do International business. You don't try to sell a product you are building for yourself, and that you are still testing, to others! Its definitively sure they won't buy! And the worse thing is that he tried to sell it at the one and only customer who would never buy: America. The Americans would have never bought the Arrow for its defence because it would have greatly corrupted the American Aircraft business. It was a cutting-edge aircraft, 20 years ahead of it's time and their aircraft industry would have had a long way to go to compensate that amount of technology. But the USAF wanted it badly. Therefore, the chief of the USAF informed the Canadian government that they would buy Arrows FOR Canada, but not FROM Canada, as they did with most UN countries during the beginning of the Cold War. But Canada took this as charity and said NO.

But even when the development costs were paid, the heaviest part of the bill, the Conservatives still wanted the cost of the program down. They couldn't understand that warfare isn't cheap. Then the Americans informed them of the Bomarc missile. Since Sputnik, some people thought that the future of air defence was on missiles and that manned fighters were obsolete. Even a fighter 20 years ahead of its time. And some of those people ran the country. The Bomarc was composed of a detection system on the DEW line (Distant Early Warning), a nuclear warhead and a solid fuel rocket. They were to be fired from two bases in Canada, one in northern Quebec, the other near North Bay in Ontario. But the missile only had a range of 400 miles, but there were 3000 miles left unprotected west of North Bay! The back door was still open. And just to prove the Bomarc wasn't that good, the Americans planned to build 18 bases, it later dropped to 14, and then to 8. This was weird since the Americans usually increase their amount of protection... But Diefenbaker fell for it. He bought missiles at a price of 200 million US. On February 20th, 1959, he cancelled and terminated the Arrow program, so his defence budget could afford the Bomarc missiles. At the price he paid for the Bomarc, 135 Arrows could have been produced and put in service, including the armament system. 15, 000 people lost their jobs in one day. The Arrow was the biggest R&D project in Canada, and the biggest layoff in Canadian history happened after its cancellation. A.V.Roe itself crumbled from the second largest corporation in Canada, to a sleazy 500 employee company, mainly performing CF-100 overhauls, the plane it built before the Arrow, and building a few appliances and aluminum boats.

Many ex-Avro employees went to the US after the Arrow and became chief engineers for NASA and other aviation companies. Many Avro engineers, including Jim Chamberlin, became the head of NASA's design team, and designed the Moonar landing vehicles and spacecraft for the Gemini and Apollo programs, and even started to design the Space shuttle. Others went back to England and helped in the design of the Concorde.

After the cancellation, all the Arrows, production tooling and blueprints were destroyed and scrapped. It was all sold to the Sam Lax & Co. of Mississauga, for $350,000. The 5 completed planes themselves, valued around 3 million each, were sold to him for $2,500 each, and they were cut to pieces.
****************************************


i don,t think it was a matter of fearing our military power more so as we had something better, way better than anything that they were capible of... and they wanted it. we all know how ruthless the govenrment is. they stop at nothing to get what they want and then say that nothing ever happened. *cough*bullshyt*cough*

from my understanding, the Iroquois engines were to be sold to 5 different nations, the US being one of them... not the Arrow itself.
then they saw what it was capible of and decided then that they needed to take that, well... just incase we did another 1812 on their asses. (; still some hard feeling there i guess.

the project DID NOT go over budget like they say it did. it was like 10 million under budget and ready to go into full production.

but enough about that.. a black car just pulled up in front of my house and someone is knocking at the
 
I work for a canadian aerospace company and the aero is a semi sensitive issue since my company made parts of it. I fact just last year we help create a replica of it for some museum(I wasn't really part of that project so I don't have all the details).

Most are convinced the US was jealous because we had something in the late 1950's that was about 30 years ahead of anything they(the US) had. One plane wouldn't have made us a superpower but it was better then anything americans had at the time. I don't know if I beleive it that theory but something must've happened to end that program. It's probably the best this country has ever done and I still don't understand why we haven't tried anything since then.
 
Originally posted by Dralix


You mean maybe they traded us furs and wine for the tech?

Or maybe they stationed nuclear weapons on Canadian soil and said "don't worry, we've got your backs"?

:lol: That would have been a sweet trade, the furs and wine.
But having the nuk's on our soil is always nice to, I mean hey why not, Its not like Americas enemys would nuk us too. Would they? :)

O and stainz I am still reading your info but it sure is interesting and great fuel for the conspiracy. :goodjob:
 
Originally posted by Scrimshaw
I work for a canadian aerospace company and the aero is a semi sensitive issue since my company made parts of it.


It is nice to hear from some one in the industry.

I have two questions for you:

1) how much of the Arrow is still around?
2) how is canada doing in the aerospace industry are we at least doing well? (I ask out of national pride)
 
Plain and simple...it was American Pressure.

Now, I sort of agree with the decision to scrap...but I'm mostly against it.

Having the most advanced fighter in the world is a great honour, and great for protection, however, it also paints a bullseye on Canada, and makes us a large target. An honour I would rather the US had.

And besides, we wouldn't of had the ground or naval forces to back it up. However the 5 planes should NOT have been destroyed. Spending millions and millions to have the working ones scrapped is a bigger waste then the millions!

But that's all history now, can't change a damn thing.

Did you know the West Edmonton Mall has 3 working subs....for children to ride in. The Canadian Navy has 2. :)
 
Originally posted by CornMaster
Did you know the West Edmonton Mall has 3 working subs....for children to ride in. The Canadian Navy has 2. :)

we also have quite alot of canoes to protect our shores with ;)


to hunter:
Originally posted by Hunter

1) how much of the Arrow is still around?
2) how is canada doing in the aerospace industry are we at least doing well? (I ask out of national pride)

1: i think most of it was hidden from us (not really dismantled), and this is where they get new ideas for faster planes. oh and the UFOs that they have as well.... but that,s a different conspiracy.

2: we are still working with the arm i do believe.
 
Originally posted by CornMaster


Did you know the West Edmonton Mall has 3 working subs....for children to ride in. The Canadian Navy has 2. :)

Did you also know that our largest navy resurve is in Saskatoon Sask. :crazyeye:

I dont know what it is with our government we develop such amazing tech like the Arrow or even the CF100 and then dont expand on it. Air power is some thing that Canada could realy use. I mean our piolts are some of the best in the world and having a deployable air force would realy help internationaly with situations both peace keeping and strait out war. We wouldnt have to expend great amounts of money bying our air power and could then reinvest the saved money into the rest of our forces. Developments like the Arrow would have allowed us to do what we are good at, helping the international comunity to presurve peace. Also we wouldnt be so hard pressed to respond militarily if we werent so dependant on others.

We have the people to create great things and they recive no support. This also would provide jobs for our always damaged economy as well as a greater sence of national pride. Its a shame.:mad:
 
Congrats on your fine mod work, guys. But as far as the historical assessment is concerned...

:vomit:

This thread is another great sample of why I'm seriously looking at leaving this pathetic country. More narcissistic, "Canada matters," navel-gazing, self-indulgent, anti-american, "we're better than America" conspiracy theories instead of hard realistic fact checking. I think one site I found put it best: "Terminal Avro Arrow Obsession Syndrome."

Here's the real reason: the Avro was a toilet for money.

While hunting for figures to refresh my memory on this, I found this data, cited as from the Discovery channel:

-By 1958, the Department of Defence Production estimated that $300 million had been spent on the Arrow.

-$871 million was the estimate of further development costs to perfect the fighter and weapon systems, an estimate that would have been taken seriously given Avro's repeated requests for new cash infusions in the previous years. Even if this estimate is wildly wrong (which I doubt) it's the estimate Cabinet had on the table when it made its decision.

-To compensate, the government changed its order from 300 units to 169, "at a cost of $12 million per unit." [the per-unit price of the US interceptors later purchased was $2 million]

"In the military, tensions were on the rise as the Arrow program started to eat up large percentages of the defence budget. Rivalry inside the airforce grew as well. The Arrow couldn’t be adapted to European theatre needs, and a rift developed between Canadian NATO and NORAD air force officers."

To put this in perspective...

In 1958, the government of Canada spent $559m on old age security (before the Canada pension plan existed) for the entire country. Since this was pre-CPP, this was a chintzy OAS program.

The entire defence budget - which served a fairly large army, navy and air force at the time - was $1.6 billion.

At those rates, the full purchase of the reduced order of 169 Arrows at the $12m unit price was equal to half the entire national budget of one of the world's richest post-war economies for an entire fiscal year.

Even if half of those cost numbers are off, it's still an enormous burden to bear for a country on the verge of creating a massive welfare state. So, do you get it yet?

For another interesting perspective, try this link, which suggests that the US was prepared to buy the fighters FOR us - but, oh, wait, golly, could that mean that we couldn't afford them because the unit price was too high for this monstrously overpriced rolls royce? Apparently, the enigmatic and often apoplectic Crawford Gordon (of Avro) might have ordered the planes destroyed in a fit of pique and rage. What? How could such an arrogant ass do something like that?

http://www.aircraftplanesandjets.com/fighters/avro_arrow.htm
 
Originally posted by Richard III
Congrats on your fine mod work, guys. But as far as the historical assessment is concerned...

:vomit:

This thread is another great sample of why I'm seriously looking at leaving this pathetic country. More narcissistic, "Canada matters," navel-gazing, self-indulgent, anti-american, "we're better than America" conspiracy theories instead of hard realistic fact checking. I think one site I found put it best: "Terminal Avro Arrow Obsession Syndrome."


http://www.aircraftplanesandjets.com/fighters/avro_arrow.htm

Well where do I begin....
First let me say that yes I thank you for your information as I stated in the begining this was to be a fun conversation not 100% serious. This is a different perspective and there are many sides to a story. Thank you for yours.

NOW let me say this, mabey it would be best if you did pack up and GET OUT. Not because of your ideas but because your not willing to stay and make it better. You seem to have issues with this nation but lack the will to try to make it better. I grant you this is not a perfect nation, but name one that is. Certainly not America, witch if you read above you will find we do not blame but rather it is our own government we are holding acountable(bering in mind this is still ment to be partly a joke thread). your lashing out at your own nation is a serios insult to all who have tried to make it better. Of course we are proud and make the sorries bigger or better, thats what pride dose. America dose this to, if you think other wise I would ask you to investigate further. It is what hold nations together.

Lastly you better think hard about the nation you go to as to whether it will make you any happier. The Americans I know are as proud of their nation as we are of ours and rightly so. Do you think their stories will make you happy. I dont know what problem you have with Canada its one of the great nations of this world where a person of any race can say or do what they want without fear of getting shot (a real fear in some nations). What ever you decide I wish you all the best but hope you will decide that what ever nation your in, to try and make it better rather than sit comfortably in your arm chair making fun of it.
 
Originally posted by Hunter


Well where do I begin....
First let me say that yes I thank you for your information as I stated in the begining this was to be a fun conversation not 100% serious. This is a different perspective and there are many sides to a story. Thank you for yours.

NOW let me say this, mabey it would be best if you did pack up and GET OUT. Not because of your ideas but because your not willing to stay and make it better. You seem to have issues with this nation but lack the will to try to make it better. I grant you this is not a perfect nation, but name one that is. Certainly not America, witch if you read above you will find we do not blame but rather it is our own government we are holding acountable(bering in mind this is still ment to be partly a joke thread). your lashing out at your own nation is a serios insult to all who have tried to make it better. Of course we are proud and make the sorries bigger or better, thats what pride dose. America dose this to, if you think other wise I would ask you to investigate further. It is what hold nations together.

Lastly you better think hard about the nation you go to as to whether it will make you any happier. The Americans I know are as proud of their nation as we are of ours and rightly so. Do you think their stories will make you happy. I dont know what problem you have with Canada its one of the great nations of this world where a person of any race can say or do what they want without fear of getting shot (a real fear in some nations). What ever you decide I wish you all the best but hope you will decide that what ever nation your in, to try and make it better rather than sit comfortably in your arm chair making fun of it.


well said Hunter (:

i was looking for the right words on how to reply here, but nothing good came to mind. just a little defensive is all.

and i agree, if you don,t like Canada, go somewhere else. it is a big world after all and i,m quite sure you,ll like it where ever you move to as well :rolleyes:

but i feel, that in Canada, where i live, i have more freedoms than most places on earth and wouldn,t live anywhere else. true we are not a perfect nation, but from the way i see it, when and if you find that perfect little place.... please let us all know about it. i then might consider a move.

i am very proud of my heritage, and i have the option to believe what i want, and you have that same option too.
 
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