Aztecs

[Gazebo]

Eh, it's not really boring. Bonus Faith/Gold per kill is a lifesaver for my aggressive Authority ways early game, and it's not like 1F/1P per 3/4(with another buff) citizens instead of 2 would make it any less or more boring.

Also I must disagree about Tradition being needed. It's not. Try it out, two Authority games (Emperor) in a row I had the biggest pop and production (popduction?) by late classical with no effort, only two lake tiles, barely any rivers and despite no Artemis. One game (in this one I nerfed 1pop to equal 34% of 1F/1P) I also had the biggest pop, but this time I had more rivers than the typical Communitas-script created drylands.

It's just not very fun to play when buildings get created almost as soon as you decide you want them in every FG city.

May need to bring down to 1 per 3 instead of 1 per 2. I had it at 1 per 3 but Aztecs were still getting stomped by the AI.

G

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

May need to bring down to 1 per 3 instead of 1 per 2. I had it at 1 per 3 but Aztecs were still getting stomped by the AI.

G

I think AI performance has little meaning to be honest. Way too much depends on their flavours.

I still remember how one patch a year or two ago lowered Casimir's science flavour (not sure if it was done by you or Firaxis but I remember that happening somewhere, but I think it was in CBP) by 2 or 3 and he has not only stopped running away, but also turned into a weakling only slightly better than the likes of Isabella.

 

[Gazebo]

I think AI performance has little meaning to be honest. Way too much depends on their flavours.

I still remember how one patch a year or two ago lowered Casimir's science flavour (not sure if it was done by you or Firaxis but I remember that happening somewhere, but I think it was in CBP) by 2 or 3 and he has not only stopped running away, but also turned into a weakling only slightly better than the likes of Isabella.

Patently untrue. Flavors matter far, far less in the CP, as I've rewritten so much to ignore them.

G

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Patently untrue. Flavors matter far, far less in the CP, as I've rewritten so much to ignore them.

G

Checked the files and you're right. The flavours file is now completely different than it was last time I checked (year + ago). Most flavours now depend on "group" (like Coalition, etc) with some small, almost irrelevant deviations from the norm for each leader.

 

[Funak]

I think AI performance has little meaning to be honest. Way too much depends on their flavours.

From my observation of Aztecs before this change they did the exact same thing every game, they declared an early war with Jaguars / Spearjaguars and did really well, then once they hit gunpowder they declared another war and got eliminated.
On average they were doing worse than Austria because at least sometimes Austria survived to industrial+, Monty never did.

Their current kit includes both a UA and a UU that goes obsolete in the Medieval era and which honestly aren't that impressive before the Medieval era either.

Comparing for example the Aztecs to the Celts. The Celtic UU is way stronger and goes obsolete later despite practically unlocking at the same time.
The Celtic UA pretty much guarantees a religion, on top of that it is a lot more flexible. Even if you decide that you want to go with the Aztec approach as Celts (going for the Morrigan pantheon) you get a whole lot more yields from kills compared to the Aztecs, and the yields are a lot better, GAP and Culture vs faith.

So what is left for the Aztecs after that? That golden age on victory thing, which isn't bad at all, but you kinda need to exploit it to get any real value out of it (something that the AI definitely can't handle).

 

[Rean]

One of the things that stands out to me about the Aztecs was the crazy amount of sacrifice they did, to the point where they started conquering stuff for the sake of having more prisoners to sacrifice. I think the best way to replicate this would be to buff the UA by a crazy amount, so much that you get desperate for every single kill you can get, going to war with everyone you find just to get a few more prisoners. Perhaps also a bonus for razing cities instead of conquering them, like faith per turn for every city currently being razed.

On a unrelated sidenote, I desperately hope that the Civ 6 Montezuma's agenda will be to worship everyone who's significantly more technologically advanced as gods.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

The problem I see with Aztecs is all about their UU...it is awesome, but very very early. Compare to other warmonger civs. Songhai have free promotions for all their units at every stage of the game. Zulu unique barracks is a gift that keeps on giving and they have a late UU. Denmark's amphibious shenanigans never go away. Etc...

Perhaps spread some of Jaguar goodness around? Iroquois already have global woodsman...but extra healing on victory would be a nice thing to have on a wider spread of units.

 

[Funak]

Current version Floating Gardens are a bit troublesome.

The bonuses on it are so big that the entire game becomes unchallenging once you get it. Everything you want built creates itself because of how much production you're getting, your cities are the biggest of all despite facing Aztec/China and working mostly Mines. If you also got lots of river tiles or, heavens forbid, lakes, then your cities will get to 20+ long before Medieval. And for that pop you get lots of production so it's never a waste.

+1F/+1P per 2 citizens just scales too well, it should be 1 per 3 at most, but it'd be better if it just got another base +1F+1P. I liked playing Aztecs before but now I had to nerf them in the XML to enjoy them again.

After trying them out a few times I can conclude that I disagree with you. Your cities might grow slightly bigger, slightly faster on average but you're nowhere close to the civs with actual growth-bonuses. an extra 1F/4pop as this change added translates into +5 food in those 20 pop cities you mentioned, nowhere close to competing with the sheer growthpotential of the +40% growth that India get in those same 20pop cities.

The extra production is definitely helpful and overall I like the change, but the building is definitely not overpowered, It's probably in the top10 buildings overall now but I wouldn't class it higher than the Tabya, the Coliseum or the papermaker.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

After trying them out a few times I can conclude that I disagree with you. Your cities might grow slightly bigger, slightly faster on average but you're nowhere close to the civs with actual growth-bonuses. an extra 1F/4pop as this change added translates into +5 food in those 20 pop cities you mentioned, nowhere close to competing with the sheer growthpotential of the +40% growth that India get in those same 20pop cities.

The extra production is definitely helpful and overall I like the change, but the building is definitely not overpowered, It's probably in the top10 buildings overall now but I wouldn't class it higher than the Tabya, the Coliseum or the papermaker.

Actually by 20 pop you're getting +6F/+6P compared to the water mill (its base stats are 1 higher both) as well as +F from rivers and +3F from lakes.

 

[Funak]

Actually by 20 pop you're getting +6F/+6P compared to the water mill (its base stats are 1 higher both) as well as +F from rivers and +3F from lakes.

"an extra 1F/4pop as this change added translates into +5 food"

Where did I mention a watermill? I said compared to the old floating garden, which most everyone agrees was terrible.

 

[Funak]

I was able to make pretty good use out of the FG with a tradition-start. But considering going tradition kinda kills your ability to use your UU (at least for early offensive wars) I think that's kinda fine. The extra hammers are awesome

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

You were right, I overreacted. After playing more, Aztecs are fine.

The UB is great but probably worse than Songhai's fifty billion culture rivers or Egyptian super tomb. The UA is decent, the UU is awesome but has the flaw that not only it upgrades into a Spearman instead of Swordsman, it won't receive the Landsknecht promotions of Authority.

 

[BliTTzZ]

The UA is decent, the UU is awesome but has the flaw that not only it upgrades into a Spearman instead of Swordsman, it won't receive the Landsknecht promotions of Authority.

Standart warriors also upgrade into spearmen.

 

[Funak]

Standart warriors also upgrade into spearmen.

Sure, but you don't have to build standard warriors and you don't have to upgrade them to spearmen.

 

[Txurce]

I was able to make pretty good use out of the FG with a tradition-start. But considering going tradition kinda kills your ability to use your UU (at least for early offensive wars) I think that's kinda fine. The extra hammers are awesome

Given this trade-off and the UU's early fade out, are the Aztecs an exception to the "stick with one policy branch" rule, favoring an Authority start (and maybe even Tribute), followed by Tradition?

 

[Funak]

Given this trade-off and the UU's early fade out, are the Aztecs an exception to the "stick with one policy branch" rule, favoring an Authority start (and maybe even Tribute), followed by Tradition?

I wouldn't do that. In my try i completely neglected authority at all, going Tradition into Aesthetics. There is such a big difference between tradition and Authority playstyle that I don't necessarily think going both of them should be worth it (anymore)

 

[phantomaxl1207]

I wonder if the UA could benefit from giving Yields when a Citizen is born. Or would that just reinforce that it fails to scale in to the later stages of the game?

 

[Funak]

I wonder if the UA could benefit from giving Yields when a Citizen is born. Or would that just reinforce that it fails to scale in to the later stages of the game?

That could have been an idea, but...
1. It kinda doesn't fit with the sacrifice theme
2. With the change to the Floating Gardens this would probably be too much tradition incentive.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I wonder if the UA could benefit from giving Yields when a Citizen is born. Or would that just reinforce that it fails to scale in to the later stages of the game?

Aztecs are already a powerhouse and definitely one of the strongest civs - they need no buffs.

 

[JungleBucks]

Aztecs are already a powerhouse and definitely one of the strongest civs - they need no buffs.

This to the second power.