Aztecs

[ElliotS]

That said, I don’t know why you would; This sounds like a nerf.

Jaguars have 10 CS. Spearmen have 11 CS. Other than a bonus versus horsemen what do spearmen have that Jaguars don't outside of 1 CS? I'm pretty sure not all Jaguar unique promotions carry over, so they seem like a downgrade in many ways.

If I was going to write the changelogs I would go:
Sacrificial Captives: % of CS from 100 to 150, Melee units get Glorious Brutality* promotion, dealing 15% extra damage to wounded units. Name Changed to Flower Wars
Hanging Gardens: +10% Food/Production in city during golden ages, -2 culture
Jaguar: Gets +50% CS versus Mounted units and upgrades into directly into Pikemen for the same cost as Spearman to Pikeman

This would leave them with the weakest warmongering bonus in the game, (while still having one) synergize their UA and UB, and smooth out a massive flaw in their UU.

Alternatively I could see:

Sacrificial Captives: % of CS from 100 to 150, Name Changed to Flower Wars
Hanging Gardens: +15% Food/Production in city during golden ages, -2 culture
Jaguar: Gets +50% CS versus Mounted units and upgrades into directly into Pikemen for the same cost as Spearman to Pikeman

If we're determined to keep them as the only major warmonger with no bonus to warmongering at all.

 

[ElliotS]

Also the choices regarding happiness with high population might have a big impact on Aztec balance, because perpetual golden ages with extra food can lead to big cities.

 

[Stalker0]

Jaguar: Gets +50% CS versus Mounted units and upgrades into directly into Pikemen for the same cost as Spearman to Pikeman

So basically have the Jaguar be a unique spearman that comes earlier, and remove the warrior from the Aztec lineup?

 

[ElliotS]

So basically have the Jaguar be a unique spearman that comes earlier, and remove the warrior from the Aztec lineup?

Yeah, because currently that Jaguar IS that, but then you need to upgrade them twice when you unlock pikemen. Sometimes you upgrade earlier if you're facing a lot of horses, but it's super inefficient and really kills your game.

 

[pineappledan]

So basically a really bad Pictish warrior?
All 3 of the unique promotions that Jaguars get (25hp on kills, woodsman, 33% in forest) stay on upgrade. They lose Brute force (+33% vs barbarians) and gain bonus v mounted and +1 CS when they upgrade to spearman, currently.

This is why I have been hoping that Jaguar might be lowered to 9 CS. If the difference between it and spearman was a little more definite, we wouldn't even be having this conversation; we could talk about Jaguar being a unique warrior. If the yields on kills and the UB are buffed a bit, I think a slight nerf to Jaguar is manageable

My dream Aztec build is currently as follows (changes bolded):
Aztec:
UA - 'Flower Wars' - 150% of killed unit CS is converted to Faith and Gold. Favourable peace treaties trigger a Golden Age

UU - 'Jaguar' - 9CS
Brute Force
Woodsman
25HP on kills
+33% in Forests and Jungles

UB - 'Floating Garden'
33 (no )
1/ for every 4 in City
+10%/ in City during Golden Ages
+1 to River tiles and +2 to Lake tiles

 

[CrazyG]

Jaguars keep the warrior ability of only costing 40 hammers which is a really big deal. The +33% to barbs is actually pretty significant too, you should be hunting like a madman.

I think the yields for kills should be doubled, that along with a tweak to growth/happiness would put them in a good enough spot. 15% production in golden ages is a really big perk, I think if Montezuma is still lacking adding a yield or two to the floating gardens would be enough.

 

[chicorbeef]

So what is it going to be? It seems that most of us are considering +200% gold/faith on kill and minimal Floating Garden buffs, or +150% gold/faith on kills and the Golden Age perk on Floating Gardens as well. I would be fine with either, though I suppose the upgrade costs I proposed would be excessive if this is the case so we should probably leave it for now.

@pineappledan, I really don't know why you want to nerf the Jaguar, it's really fun right now when their lifespan is prolonged through having 10 CS and they're strong enough to even fight cities, nerfing them down to 9 would be a bummer.

 

[chicorbeef]

Okay, so here is my proposal after a couple of Aztec games and thinking about it some more.

UA: Yields buffed to 200%. No other changes.
UB: Drop +2 culture. Change scaler to +1 food/prod. per 3 citizens. Disable Well.
UU: No changes.

How do you all feel about this?

 

[ElliotS]

Okay, so here is my proposal after a couple of Aztec games and thinking about it some more.

UA: Yields buffed to 200%. No other changes.
UB: Drop +2 culture. Change scaler to +1 food/prod. per 3 citizens. Disable Well.
UU: No changes.

How do you all feel about this?

I don't think that's enough, and I think the bonus in golden ages is really good because it is self-synergy. Like this they would still lack any and all self-synergy.

 

[chicorbeef]

I don't think that's enough, and I think the bonus in golden ages is really good because it is self-synergy. Like this they would still lack any and all self-synergy.

We could always add +10% production during Golden Ages later if we so desire (I realized, though, that +10% food is way too much when the Floating Gardens already get such a bonus to food), I just think it's better to undershoot than overshoot for now, because AI Monty could potentially become a monster if we aren't careful. However I feel now (after playing the Aztecs a bit more) that the main point we should focus on is the UA yields. Civs don't need to have obvious, explicit synergy to by synergistic-guaranteed early Religion and tons of early gold from buffed UA would synergize well with the infrastructure theme of the Floating Gardens and it would be quite nice as it is to be able to spam Jaguars and have all the money necessary to invest in all the important infrastructure early game (and totally skip shrines).

Oh, and btw:

I'm pretty sure not all Jaguar unique promotions carry over, so they seem like a downgrade in many ways.

They all do.

 

[ElliotS]

Oh, and btw: They all do.

It's still 100 gold for 1 CS and bonus versus mounted.

 

[Paramecium]

However I feel now (after playing the Aztecs a bit more) that the main point we should focus on is the UA yields. Civs don't need to have obvious, explicit synergy to by synergistic-guaranteed early Religion and tons of early gold from buffed UA would synergize well with the infrastructure theme of the Floating Gardens and it would be quite nice as it is to be able to spam Jaguars and have all the money necessary to invest in all the important infrastructure early game (and totally skip shrines).

May I ask you how long you played the Aztec, until you won/lost a game? Playing a couple of early games is just one side. I agree, the early game of the Aztecs is very fun. But starting with Renaissance, I have the feeling that Aztecs are falling from a cliff. Until that point, most other Civs will have their UU or it will be available soon and wars get way bigger, with more units and different types. If you expanded or the map generation wasnt that generous to you, you wont fight anymore in that big jungle/forest BIAS you have as Aztecs.

After researching Steel, you lose ALL your combat advantages as Aztecs, only having your jaguar Veterans with what, something between level 4 to 7 maybe? But like I said, even if you kill a unit and get your health back, in a lot of cases, your melee unit might be exposed and with bigger armies with a lot of mounted, ranged untis or enough hexes available to move in a lot of melee units, those very, VERY, precious units might die nonetheless. Sure, it is always hurting if a very high promoted unit dies, but in comparisson to the other Warmonger Civs I listed, the aztec cant replace those units (anymore). Sweden might still build new melees who get +20% in attack.

Honestly I think, just drop the healing from Jaguars at all and move it to the UA or let them lose it after upgrade and make it available after building the floating garden. That would be my first approach. If they will still lack later in the game, we still can discuss about a true combat bonus again.


BTW, the UA is somekind hurthing Aztecs too, if you wont fight wars (and winning them) later in the game, you will have an insane high golden age counter so you are more or less forced to fight wars or use the other instant triggers for golden ages. It makes somehow the founder belief "hero worship" useless, you want to take cities to raze them, so why not getting more yields for it, but the golden age points are pointless ...

 

[kawyua]

I dislike jaguars upgrade path. I kind of wish it would upgrade straight to swordsman or something

 

[chicorbeef]

May I ask you how long you played the Aztec, until you won/lost a game? Playing a couple of early games is just one side. I agree, the early game of the Aztecs is very fun. But starting with Renaissance, I have the feeling that Aztecs are falling from a cliff. Until that point, most other Civs will have their UU or it will be available soon and wars get way bigger, with more units and different types. If you expanded or the map generation wasnt that generous to you, you wont fight anymore in that big jungle/forest BIAS you have as Aztecs.

After researching Steel, you lose ALL your combat advantages as Aztecs, only having your jaguar Veterans with what, something between level 4 to 7 maybe? But like I said, even if you kill a unit and get your health back, in a lot of cases, your melee unit might be exposed and with bigger armies with a lot of mounted, ranged untis or enough hexes available to move in a lot of melee units, those very, VERY, precious units might die nonetheless. Sure, it is always hurting if a very high promoted unit dies, but in comparisson to the other Warmonger Civs I listed, the aztec cant replace those units (anymore). Sweden might still build new melees who get +20% in attack.

Honestly I think, just drop the healing from Jaguars at all and move it to the UA or let them lose it after upgrade and make it available after building the floating garden. That would be my first approach. If they will still lack later in the game, we still can discuss about a true combat bonus again.


BTW, the UA is somekind hurthing Aztecs too, if you wont fight wars (and winning them) later in the game, you will have an insane high golden age counter so you are more or less forced to fight wars or use the other instant triggers for golden ages. It makes somehow the founder belief "hero worship" useless, you want to take cities to raze them, so why not getting more yields for it, but the golden age points are pointless ...

I played one test game till Turn 83 to test the yields (that's when I got my religion), didn't bother beyond that.
Played one game before that I ended in the Atomic Era. I virtually killed the Romans early on with Jaguars (left them with one city) and regularly fought against the Danes, but I basically had the experience that you predicted-I fell right off a cliff, I got a couple of Golden Ages here and there but nothing special and my Science/Culture was totally reliant on other civs. There were minimal Rivers/Lakes and I felt like I had no buffs. I didn't have the military might needed to be able to go on a conquest spree.
I had a different game back in February that went amazing, I got tons of science/culture from killing whole civs and snowballed in literally everything. The Jaguar veterans were a little meh but still useful. I won the game Turn 253 (or maybe 273? I don't remember). Pure domination. I had a long River system in this game which was nice.
I have another game going right now, Turn 61, feels alright but I still feel the yields are underwhelming and they are actually the key component that aren't helping me snowball enough to really take off or upgrade my Jags into Spears to hold off Horsemen. Fighting with Jaguars is starting to fall off so I'm going to need alternatives.

I'm going to see how Inspiration/Scholasticism hold together for Aztecs because culture/science seems to be their weak spot.

I'd be open to try both +200% yields and the minimal Floating Garden changes as I proposed, as well as +150% yields and more heavy Floating Garden changes (the +10% or +15% production during Golden Ages, maybe Food as well).

 

[ElliotS]

I dislike jaguars upgrade path. I kind of wish it would upgrade straight to swordsman or something

Actually this is a way better idea. Jaguars upgrade into swordsmen. Sure iron could be a problem, but that's similar for Rome and Aztecs.

This, yields going to 150% and +10% or 15% yields from floating gardens during golden age would be a pretty great combo.

At that point you might not need a combat bonus, because you could actually build an advantage with Jaguar Swordsmen and Jaguar Longswordsmen. It would be very rome-esqe. (The only other warmonger without a real combat bonus, getting by entirely on MASSIVE benefit from war and a GREAT UU.)

Only other thing would be maybe obsoleting Jaguars at Tercio, and letting them upgrade straight into longswords once unlocked if possible. That would be more AI friendly as they could afford to lose some units until gunpowder and still build an advantage.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I am a proponent of Jaggy upgrading into Swordsman, it'd make more sense. You'd be paying for something you can feel more. That's how it used to be long ago anyway so it seems fine.

 

[chicorbeef]

I dislike jaguars upgrade path. I kind of wish it would upgrade straight to swordsman or something

Jaguars should start with Shock I then.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Jaguars should start with Shock I then.

Then they need -1 or even -2 CS I guess.

 

[Gazebo]

Jaguars should start with Shock I then.

Why? They're not swordsmen. They would upgrade into them.

G

 

[chicorbeef]

Why? They're not swordsmen. They would upgrade into them.

G

It would make going Shock early wasteful in terms of XP, you'd want to go Drill all the time. And it would making building Barracks wasteful as well if your intention is to build Jaguars and upgrade them to Swordsmen.

Then they need -1 or even -2 CS I guess.

Would they? I still don't think Jags would be OP.