Dear Zyxia
Thanks for your comments and details of the trades you have made, it looks like you made some really good deals there! Don't worry about not informing me, I myself made a tentative enquiry when I met the Iroquois about the possibility of a currency for philo and CoL deal, like yourself it was done with the view of bringing these techs into the alliance. The Iroquois replied to say they would think about it and I have since informed them I have made arrangements else ware for these techs. Whilst replying I asked if there is anything else he would consider trading for currency with and got this interesting reply: -
Tomasjj said:
Dear Sultan,
With a little brinkmanship, you might have gotten a better deal with our shamans!
However, we understand that you opted acting when the deal was on the table.
We are very much open to trading, and would like to offer a trade of Map Making in return of Currency. This is not an even trade, so I am open to your suggestions on how to balance it, even if the spread of Currency has lowered its beaker cost (I suspect the cost of Map Making will also lower, but we are not sure it that will happen before he receive it or not).
We expect to discover map making in about 7 turns from now.
Another option to trade would be Literature, which we stand to receive sooner rather than later.
How do you feel about these issues, Sultan?
With honour,
Hiawatha
Not sure what he means by spread of currency, I didn't say I was trading it to anyone else, somebody else have it maybe? For your information, as of turn 66 I was 6 turns from completing currency.
This makes a republic trade a little more difficult now, he didn't say when he expects to get literature so there could still be some hope. Alternatively we could trade for polytheism from your contact and use that with currency as this exactly matches the beaker cost of Republic, do you know when your contact expects to get Poly?
Another option would be to buy map making and then research construction and republic between us. This is the least desirable alternative but might not be too bad with a couple of libraries and a below monopoly republic cost.
Regarding the proposed alliance deal, it is really pleasing to see we already agree on most matters! I have commented below on the various points you raised: -
I am not sure about bringing in a third partner. It
could be very beneficial. For example, two partners
research while the third provides gold for all three.
As you say, the risk indeed is what the other four
peoples will do. If we want to do this, the Iroquois
could be the third partner. They are commercial and
advanced, and although they have traded here and
there, I think they do not have a fixed partner yet.
But perhaps it is best to form this alliance with the
two of us and invite a third partner later?
Agreed, we should keep our options open for the time being.
Technology
As you say, we need to figure out how to deal with
tech trades. I think trading will be necessary,
otherwise the other five civs can easily pull ahead of
the two of us. Also, it seems silly to research a tech
that can be obtained in trade. But of course we should
prevent being played against each other.
As far as contacts go, I expect them to spread quite
rapidly. There is certainly value in them now, but it
will disappear over time. I have contact with five
civilizations now, and rumour has it there is one more
somewhere. May I ask how many you have been able to
contact?
Apart from yourself, I also have contact with the Iroquois and the Carthaginians. Certain factors have meant that it is only now that my curraghs are beginning to move beyond my own landmass, I am hoping the rest of the contacts will come fairly quickly now.
Another issue, of somewhat similar nature, is how to
deal with your bonus tech. Do you have any ideas on
this already?
One idea that I'll throw out for discussion is that we
equally share the research burden, and any techs that
come to the alliance by other means will be shared
freely. This ensures that we acquire each tech only
once. In particular, it means that you would provide
your bonus, while I would provide the gains from my
current trade advantage.
I wouldn't want to treat my free tech as being the same as techs gained in trade, I would expect some consideration to be made from the other party otherwise it would be like giving up one of the benefits of my traits. That said the deals you made for the techs your contacts have brought in (philosophy, code of law, polytheism) were made before we finalised any deal and arose due to your current advantage in contacts (a benefit of one of your traits!) so yes I can consider this as consideration towards my free tech, it certainly seemed to my advantage to gain those techs free of charge! The total beaker cost of the above techs is 840, how about also contributing 40% of the beaker difference to my free tech in gold once my free tech is known?
I think the situation would be different if this were the industrial age free tech we were talking about, where we both had all contacts and all middle age trades had been approved by both parties. Should we end up extending the alliance into the industrial age we would have to cross that bridge when we come to it.
When we sell techs for gold, we can of course easily
split the proceeds. Another matter will be when one of
us wishes to sell a tech for other goods that cannot
be shared so easily, like luxuries. I have no solution
for that yet. Perhaps only trade tech with mutual
consent? I agree this can start with Lit/Curr.
I think only trading techs with mutual consent is sensible given both parties have an interest in getting a fair price and the wider strategic implications of trading a tech to a rival.
Peace
To the peace treaty I would like to add that we will
not put units on each others continents, just to avoid
nasty land grabs and other tensions. Empty ships in
small numbers (or preferably curraghs) are fine with
me.
Also, I would like to extend the peace treaty to last
10-15 turns after the tech alliance ends. Or we could
put in a cancellation clause.
Agree with all of the above, 15 turns extra on the peace treaty is fine. I think we can leave out the bit about naval vessels, better to just ask for permission when / if it's needed.
Mutual protection
An MTDG style gold payment in case of attack seems
sensible to me. Military aid would be useful as well,
but I am not sure it is realistically possible for a
while. Your idea of scaling the gold payments is very
sensible.
Ok leave out military aid as its impossible to make any commitments at this point in time. For financial aid how about starting off at 10gpt, review after becoming a republic and again after education and gunpowder are known (roughly half way through middle ages). For length of payments, how about 20 turns max?
Resources
Regarding resources: I agree to your proposal of first
rights, and would be very happy to trade for your
silks! I have wines in return. I have horses and iron
myself (just need to connect it), so strategically
we're both set for now. And yes, there is a coastal
connection between us!
I will finish Literature in 5 turns and can start on
Map Making right away. Establishing the trade route is
then just a matter of time
That is great, I look forward to the first shipment of wines arriving in our ports! I think it only needs one of us to establish the route, my curragh that hailed yours on turn 60 is currently 1NW + 8N of your curragh's location at the end of that turn. Would this curragh be relatively close to your homeland? If so then I can send him your way if you give me directions, at the moment he has a landmass to the east that seems to continue to the north and what looks like another landmass to the west across a thin coastal bridge.
It seems we are now close to full agreement here, how would you like to document the agreement? We could go for a formally worded treaty like in the MTDG (though the thought of drafting one doesn't particularly appeal to me!) or simply agree to the principles outlined in our correspondence?
OK that's about all for now.
Yours in friendship
Sultan Aigburth of the Ottomans
The barbarians troubles are partly our own fault since we could not resist disturbing a village we found.
But anyway, I hope to get Philo out of him. And at some point I'll have to start talking to Aigburth about this long term deal.
. The other curraghs bravely sail on. Othello, in the north, also runs into a barb ship:
.
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